I took the LSAT probably around the same time Roche did. A good portion of the test back then was based on formal logic, necessary and sufficient conditions and all that jazz.
So when a person makes a claim that certain things are needed (i.e. necessary) to achieve a specific goal, and proceeds to achieve that goal, it is logically sound to conclude that those necessary conditions have been satisfied.
Or, in his own words: “I’d need to be capable of running a 13:xx 5k at altitude, or around sub-4 min mile fitness.”
By then breaking the Leadville course record, the logical conclusion is that he was indeed in that shape (or at least believed himself to be). People doubting that reality are not putting words in his mouth, they are refuting the logically implied claim he made.
And as far as it goes, I don’t think his claim is fundamentally flawed. There obviously IS a requisite/necessary speed to be able to run 15:26 at Leadville. Or as was discussed a few weeks ago in the aftermath of Molly Seidel’s Black Canyon performance, a necessary marathon ability to be at the pointy end of women’s ultra fields in 2026. But questioning whether that requisite speed is 4:00 for a mile, absent any evidence supporting his ability to actually run that time, does not make one a foaming at the mouth MAGA witch hunter.
And, as you and others have pointed out, he and Megan coach lots of really good athletes. His emphasis on top end speed is clearly something that is working for their athletes. But having to couch the importance of that aspect of your training philosophy in ridiculous claims like the 4 min mile understandably draws the ire of a lot of folks, especially when such hyperbole/inauthenticity forms a pattern behavior.
Which is what made Matt Daniels treatment of the subject such a contrast. A guy who also coaches for a living, who also performs at an extremely high level in the ultra space, and who has actually run under 4 minutes for a mile, had a much more measured appraisal of his potential ability in the mile. You can guess which of the two, in my opinion, comes off as more genuine.
All that said, as much as I know we love extremes around here, I think it’s possible to both be turned off by his hyperbole and myriad other strange behaviors and also not think Tara Dower or Drew Holmen must have Stockholm Syndrome to be coached by him.
Live and let live, and all that. Or live and let live, and occasionally jump on LetsRun and re-stir the very over-stirred pot.
You must be new here, that was far too much logic in one post. But seriously, very well put. The most polarizing of personalities are generally quite adept at speaking from both sides of their mouth, always with a touch of plausible deniability.
Exactly. Hit the nail on the head here. It's amazing how low IQ some of his cult followers and elite athletes must be. But then again a lot of the mid pack ultra running crowd has no idea what the difference between say a 4:25 mile and a 4:00 mile might be. To even have the gall of equating the Leadville record to such a specific benchmark and also a sub 14-min 5km "at altitude" also demonstrates Roche's self-promotional intents and acts of sensationalism.
And remember all the times "4-min mile pace" is specifically referenced in his treadmill workout videos (or Megs running "5:30 per mile pace" while dropping food out of her mouth?). It's all for show and attention. Runs a couple 400m reps on an outdoor track in 64-63 and he's suddenly in "around 4:00min mile shape" again. Speculates about running a marathon and Megs is quick to reference that he'd likely be around 2:10 maybe faster? Classic patterns of narcissism. Anything to dupe their followers and gain power.
Dude, I'll go easy on you since it seems like you really believe what you're saying is true. It's not.
Go find a quote where David said he could run a sub-4 minute mile and come back and give us a link to the quote or a podcast. You won't. He never said it.
And if the tweet is not sufficient, you can pursue the numerous comments asking about the claim of sub-4 minute mile fitness. never walks it back. even doubles down with Sage.
You must be new here, that was far too much logic in one post. But seriously, very well put. The most polarizing of personalities are generally quite adept at speaking from both sides of their mouth, always with a touch of plausible deniability.
Exactly. Hit the nail on the head here. It's amazing how low IQ some of his cult followers and elite athletes must be. But then again a lot of the mid pack ultra running crowd has no idea what the difference between say a 4:25 mile and a 4:00 mile might be. To even have the gall of equating the Leadville record to such a specific benchmark and also a sub 14-min 5km "at altitude" also demonstrates Roche's self-promotional intents and acts of sensationalism.
And remember all the times "4-min mile pace" is specifically referenced in his treadmill workout videos (or Megs running "5:30 per mile pace" while dropping food out of her mouth?). It's all for show and attention. Runs a couple 400m reps on an outdoor track in 64-63 and he's suddenly in "around 4:00min mile shape" again. Speculates about running a marathon and Megs is quick to reference that he'd likely be around 2:10 maybe faster? Classic patterns of narcissism. Anything to dupe their followers and gain power.
And if the tweet is not sufficient, you can pursue the numerous comments asking about the claim of sub-4 minute mile fitness. never walks it back. even doubles down with Sage.
one may also hear it from his lips here, at about 38:45: "...the reason I feel confident I can break a sub-4 min mile is [blah blah strides blah blah blah]...."
Just saw David's latest run with Hans Troyer and he looks like he's aged 200 years...I don't see him coming back from the WS DNF. He still seems so manic about his goals - stepping away to let his plantar heal (which seems like an insanely fast rebuild but whatever), committing to canyons, deciding not to do canyons...every week there's something new and I think we're just watching him lose it in real time. I think he needs to step back from the limelight and just go back to coaching. The influencer angle is also just so bad. It's just about getting $$$ from the feed.
Just saw David's latest run with Hans Troyer and he looks like he's aged 200 years...I don't see him coming back from the WS DNF. He still seems so manic about his goals - stepping away to let his plantar heal (which seems like an insanely fast rebuild but whatever), committing to canyons, deciding not to do canyons...every week there's something new and I think we're just watching him lose it in real time. I think he needs to step back from the limelight and just go back to coaching. The influencer angle is also just so bad. It's just about getting $ from the feed.
may assist to balance out his lower pec, uh, situation....
And if the tweet is not sufficient, you can pursue the numerous comments asking about the claim of sub-4 minute mile fitness. never walks it back. even doubles down with Sage.
one may also hear it from his lips here, at about 38:45: "...the reason I feel confident I can break a sub-4 min mile is [blah blah strides blah blah blah]...."
Dude, I'll go easy on you since it seems like you really believe what you're saying is true. It's not.
Go find a quote where David said he could run a sub-4 minute mile and come back and give us a link to the quote or a podcast. You won't. He never said it.
At one point he said he was going to train so that he'd hopefully have sub-4 fitness by the time he got to a future start line, but not once did he say he achieved it. It's one of the lies that the two or three idiot MAGAs on this thread keep telling to fire themselves and everyone up. They know who they are, and you have been duped by them.
Just saw David's latest run with Hans Troyer and he looks like he's aged 200 years...I don't see him coming back from the WS DNF. He still seems so manic about his goals - stepping away to let his plantar heal (which seems like an insanely fast rebuild but whatever), committing to canyons, deciding not to do canyons...every week there's something new and I think we're just watching him lose it in real time. I think he needs to step back from the limelight and just go back to coaching. The influencer angle is also just so bad. It's just about getting $ from the feed.
Colorado sun+caucasian+no sunscreen+extremely thin it’ll age you. Look at some of the most prominent ultra runners in Colorado and you’ll see. Put on sunscreen everyone.
one may also hear it from his lips here, at about 38:45: "...the reason I feel confident I can break a sub-4 min mile is [blah blah strides blah blah blah]...."
I love that he uses 20 and 30 second efforts as indicators for mile fitness. The 'science' (or mental gymnastics) at play here is truly astounding!
were the Roches supposed to be racing Crown King scramble 50k this weekend or something? Yeah he's full of it. It would be one thing to mention a single benchmark like "workouts at low 4 min mile pace is good speedwork for ultras" but of course he also had to throw in the "sub 14 min 5km fitness AT altitude" for good measure. The guy hasn't put up any legit track or road times to support anything close to this kind of fitness.
were the Roches supposed to be racing Crown King scramble 50k this weekend?
"There’s no great mystery to solve here. They’ve already clarified on Instagram—neither of them intended to race Crown King. Megan mentioned she’s been dealing with recurring pericarditis, and David’s been coming off illness and injury. They entered ages ago and just forgot to take their names off the start lists.
So the DNS isn’t a last-minute 'gotcha'; it’s just the reality of where things are at.
Megan referenced a Devin Kelly poem that ends: 'Sometimes it happens & sometimes it doesn’t & sometimes it happens worse.'
That feels a lot closer to truth than deciding the story first and then bending everything to fit it."
were the Roches supposed to be racing Crown King scramble 50k this weekend?
"There’s no great mystery to solve here. They’ve already clarified on Instagram—neither of them intended to race Crown King. Megan mentioned she’s been dealing with recurring pericarditis, and David’s been coming off illness and injury. They entered ages ago and just forgot to take their names off the start lists.
So the DNS isn’t a last-minute 'gotcha'; it’s just the reality of where things are at.
Megan referenced a Devin Kelly poem that ends: 'Sometimes it happens & sometimes it doesn’t & sometimes it happens worse.'
That feels a lot closer to truth than deciding the story first and then bending everything to fit it."
Thanks for the explanation David. Looking forward for your excuses at Canyons!
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