Official 2019 NCAA XC Discussion Thread - We'll be doing a live pre-race show starting at 10 am ET

blamb61 wrote:

Fair enough and worthy of discussion. I just don't like bigoted comments.

Going on a mission and not training is a disadvantage

I think finally getting back in shape after a mission and being older probably is an advantage.

I think the 1st year back from a mission the lack of tng offsets the age and the runner is at a disadvantage. It is probably even the next year and probably an advantage any years after that.

Conner Mantz had a disadvantage if anything since he is racing people the same age and he had a break in tng.

Couldn't he redshirt that year and almost get rid of that disadvantage?

skyboy wrote:

I know they have exemptions for their missions where they "don't run", but how is having a 23 year old sophomore even a fair competition?

Years these kids graduated high school:

Connor Mantz [SO] - 2015

Daniel Carney [SR] - 2012 WTF???

Jacob Heslington [SR] - 2013

Brandon Garnica [SO] - 2018 (as far as I can tell, the only proper college aged kid on the team)

Matt Owens [SO] - 2014

Michael Ottesen [SR] - 2013

Connor Weaver [JR] - 2014

It's not even good coaching, its just straight up age cheating against the rest of the ncaa

Your math sucks

Connor Mantz [SO] - 2015 - is also normal college age. 5 years post Highschool (redshirt one season + 4 years).

Hikaru wrote:

blamb61 wrote:

Fair enough and worthy of discussion. I just don't like bigoted comments.

Paradox of tolerance. Look it up. You can't be "bigoted" towards a people whose entire ideology hinges upon supremacy and hatred.

Cute to see you double-down on defending the age cheats.

Bigot allert again. Ideology doesn't hinge on supremacy and hatred. I gave my rationale about the age thing. Makes sense to me.

Jax5 wrote:

blamb61 wrote:

Fair enough and worthy of discussion. I just don't like bigoted comments.

Going on a mission and not training is a disadvantage

I think finally getting back in shape after a mission and being older probably is an advantage.

I think the 1st year back from a mission the lack of tng offsets the age and the runner is at a disadvantage. It is probably even the next year and probably an advantage any years after that.

Conner Mantz had a disadvantage if anything since he is racing people the same age and he had a break in tng.

Couldn't he redshirt that year and almost get rid of that disadvantage?

He has probably overcome most of his not training while on a mission but he isn't older than others hes racing against. Klecker is 3-weeks older than him.

Figs wrote:

If BYU has such an advantage with their older runners, then how is this their first NCAA championship?

Because there are other factors at play too such as recruiting, coaching, etc., and they aren't as good on those dimensions as programs that have won a lot like NAU, Colorado, Stanford, etc.

That's not even a dig at them. Most schools aren't as good as the programs that win titles along these dimensions. It's just that the fact that they haven't won isn't evidence that they don't have an advantage.

blamb61 wrote:

Jax5 wrote:

Couldn't he redshirt that year and almost get rid of that disadvantage?

He has probably overcome most of his not training while on a mission but he isn't older than others hes racing against. Klecker is 3-weeks older than him.

So Mantz has no advantage.

your math sucks wrote:

skyboy wrote:

I know they have exemptions for their missions where they "don't run", but how is having a 23 year old sophomore even a fair competition?

Years these kids graduated high school:

Connor Mantz [SO] - 2015

Daniel Carney [SR] - 2012 WTF???

Jacob Heslington [SR] - 2013

Brandon Garnica [SO] - 2018 (as far as I can tell, the only proper college aged kid on the team)

Matt Owens [SO] - 2014

Michael Ottesen [SR] - 2013

Connor Weaver [JR] - 2014

It's not even good coaching, its just straight up age cheating against the rest of the ncaa

Your math sucks

Connor Mantz [SO] - 2015 - is also normal college age. 5 years post Highschool (redshirt one season + 4 years).

This can't be real...please one of the BYU homers come on and tell us these graduation years aren't accurate because that would be absurd.

blamb61 wrote:

Fair enough and worthy of discussion. I just don't like bigoted comments.

Going on a mission and not training is a disadvantage

I think finally getting back in shape after a mission and being older probably is an advantage.

I think the 1st year back from a mission the lack of tng offsets the age and the runner is at a disadvantage. It is probably even the next year and probably an advantage any years after that.

Conner Mantz had a disadvantage if anything since he is racing people the same age and he had a break in tng.

One other thing to consider in this discussion of advantaged or disadvantaged is that BYU probably looses some guys after missions due to them trying to ramp back up too quickly and they get injured. Not sure if that is what happened to Shumway or not (35th I think last year, injured this year) but it does happen to some or if they hold back, they can get discouraged also by being so far behind where they once were and might decide other things are more important like school, family, etc..

Has anyone noted that Stanford could have won if not for Thomas Ratcliffe? He was 183rd overall...not gonna go through the math but if was top 10 or even top 20 I think they would have safely won, maybe even still won if he was in the 30s

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Has anyone noted that Stanford could have won if not for Thomas Ratcliffe? He was 183rd overall...not gonna go through the math but if was top 10 or even top 20 I think they would have safely won, maybe even still won if he was in the 30s

They could not have won but could have been 4th. Top four guys score was 162 so add his score to that.

BYU's women came close to winning it all. They were only 7 points off. Great effort and accomplishment for second!

To everyone complaining about BYU. Please show me what rule they are breaking. Either change the rules or put on your big kid pants and get over it. So many whiners.

Lot of Mormon missionaries around here. What I see is them walking and biking everywhere. Maybe they can't drive? I see these guys miles away from where they live (yes, I know where they live). They must walk 10 miles a day. Or more. Far from sitting around getting fat.

Rules are rules wrote:

To everyone complaining about BYU. Please show me what rule they are breaking. Either change the rules or put on your big kid pants and get over it. So many whiners.

No argument that they broke no rules and the kids running today haven't done anything that they shouldn't. Personally I just don't like the advantage that they (legally) have right now, and wish the rule was changed. But that's just my personal opinion and with the rules the way they are they certainly deserve to win.

DeBron Lames wrote:

Lot of Mormon missionaries around here. What I see is them walking and biking everywhere. Maybe they can't drive? I see these guys miles away from where they live (yes, I know where they live). They must walk 10 miles a day. Or more. Far from sitting around getting fat.

Sometimes members give them rides. Sometimes they take busses. They do a lot of walking and biking, but nothing that even comes close to a workout. This whole argument that people make about Mormons training on their missions is bull. Connor Mantz literally came home from his mission 30 pounds heavier than when he left. He did a 5k time trial and couldn't even break 17:30. That was even after starting to run a little bit again. This isnt a one off either. This is what happens with almost all missionaries. They all come home weighing 15-50 lbs more and out of shape.

Ed Eyestone deserves credit for building and coaching an excellent program at BYU. I've said before I believe Mormonism at its core is a heretical offshoot to orthodox Christianity, but that should not be used to diminish their team and running accomplishments.

I don't think BYU gets the most talented recruits coming to Provo, but they probably do have some slight advantages in the following three areas:

Altitude

Age

Discipline

T.M.A.D.D.D.H.A.S.F.N.E.

This whole argument that mormons make about taking 2 years off and gaining 30 pounds being a long-term disadvantage is bull. It takes 3 months for a young guy to lose weight and get back in shape.

skyboy wrote:

Just to be clear, I have nothing against the Mormon faith. I just think there should be an age limit to competing in the NCAA

That would be age discrimination and against the law for any institutions that receive any federal assistance, which is probably most colleges and universities. The NCAA rule on eligibility might seem not that straight forward. It was likely written to avoid breaking the law.

hart crane wrote:

Someone please post the BYU ages!

Mantz- age 23 (2 year mission)

Carney - age 25 (2 year mission, multiple stress fractures in both hips)

Heslington - age 24 (2 year mission)

Garnica - age 20 (no mission)

Owens - age 23 (2 year mission)

Ottesen - age 24 (2 year mission)

Weaver - age 23 (2 year mission)

average age: 23.14 (The average age of a team with ALL 5th year seniors w/out a mission)

Now it's someones turn to give the average age of NAU (a team with 4 freshman)