Olympic Marathon Silver Medalist Eunice Kirwa Busted for EPO Doping

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

2:01 really is a FloJo time, 1:59 is a Koch time.

Right - because nowadays nobody can dope all out anymore.

Having said that, FloJo, Koch, El G, Radcliffe and Kipchoge are all clearly the best of their era.

Actually of all eras so far.

If Flojo was clean she was capable of 10.2 doped, if Koch was clean she was capable of 46xx doped, if EL G was clean he was capable of 3.24 doped, if Radcliffe was clean she was capable of 2.12 doped. If Kipchoge is clean he is capable of 1.57 doped. There is no limit to our belief in fairytales.

Armstronglivs wrote:

There is no limit to our belief ...

Armstronglivs wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Right - because nowadays nobody can dope all out anymore.

Having said that, FloJo, Koch, El G, Radcliffe and Kipchoge are all clearly the best of their era.

Actually of all eras so far.

If Flojo was clean she was capable of 10.2 doped, if Koch was clean she was capable of 46xx doped, if EL G was clean he was capable of 3.24 doped, if Radcliffe was clean she was capable of 2.12 doped. If Kipchoge is clean he is capable of 1.57 doped. There is no limit to our belief in fairytales.

Interesting article:

"There are three broad classes of performance-enhancing drugs, including those that make athletes stronger, such as testosterone; those that improve endurance, such as EPO (erythropoietin); and stimulants, such as amphetamines, which sharpen an athlete’s focus and can quicken reaction time at the start of a race. An athlete may take these substances by themselves or in conjunction with others."

“Every imaginable cocktail has been tried,” says Dr. Michael Joyner, a physiologist at the Mayo Clinic. “This is the devil’s playground.”

"The most powerful banned substance for sprinters, says Conte, who now runs Snac System, an all-natural sports-nutrition company, is EPO. While it is more often associated with improving results for long-distance runners because of its ability to increase oxygen intake, EPO allows sprinters to do more training repetitions and to do them more intensely. “The deeper the training load long-term throughout an off-season, the greater the gains,” Conte says."

"As Joyner points out, “One of the things that people fail to recognize about doping in general is that it facilitates harder training.”

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

2:01 really is a FloJo time, 1:59 is a Koch time.

Right - because nowadays nobody can dope all out anymore.

Having said that, FloJo, Koch, El G, Radcliffe and Kipchoge are all clearly the best of their era.

Actually of all eras so far.

Tosh. You claim that EPO can improve performances by 6% then argue that it really doesn't matter because everyone dopes. So you spend so much time here arguing in circles with Rekrunner simply because the same guys winning 1500 races today in 3:28 would be winning the same races, with all the positions the same, but in 3:35? And although 3:35 might seem 'slow', that's only because the guys like Elliott, Ryun, Coe, Cram etc who'd run faster were all juiced to the gills. That's something to get really angry about here?

Notice also that this thread will devolve back into a back and forth discussion between Casual Observer and Rekrunner as to whether EPO works, weirdly something they get so passionate about when both of them agree that it doesn't matter because EVERYBODY dopes, so it wouldn't really change a thing except times. Just when some very valuable information was given about Japheth Kemei, the coach of Bett, who is still 'producing champions' despite not only Bett's conviction but a prior bust of one of his teen stars who then dropped dead at age 20.

No, we don't know if El G was clearly the best of his era. He was clearly the best doper, we don't even know if he was the best natural athlete of the dopers, because he may have been a freak responder, or at least his doping was paired with insane training under a GDR type system. You think EPO alone can make a difference of 6% and El G was probably on not only EPO but a stack of other stuff (the best that money could buy) and you don't think it possible that more naturally talented athletes from elsewhere might not even have continued competing into the EPO era when they were having to face doped up competition?

As for Marita Koch being clearly the best, she even had competition from the little corner of the world that was doping intensely in those years. If Marita Koch had been born in West Germany, do you think she would still have been clearly the best (you should, because you've claimed the West Germans were doping just as much).

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

There is no limit to our belief ...

LMAO

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

There is no limit to our belief ...

And then there are the apologists ...

But we all know that doping doesn't work on Kenyan athletes, only superior training. They do however have a misguided "belief" that EPO will help them out. It's hard to believe that Kenyan runners and their coaches can be that dumb.

This is a good find with veritable gold mine of links to a broad array of scientific research, and other articles, covering many aspects of Kenyan performance, ranging from genetics, altitude, diet, and psychology. This Kenyan scientist (Vincent Onywera - Professor of Exercise and Sports Science, Kenyatta University) has published several papers with Yannis Pitsiladis, among others. Here are some of the papers indirectly referenced in the article (just the titles and authors, links can be found in the article): The dominance of Kenyans in distance running Yannis P Pitsiladis, Vincent O Onywera, Evelina Geogiades, William O’Connell and Michael K Boit Running Performance, Nationality, Sex, and Age in the 10-km, Half-Marathon, Marathon, and the 100-km Ultramarathon IAAF 1999–2015 Nikolaidis, Pantelis T.; Onywera, Vincent O.; Knechtle, Beat Demographic characteristics of elite Kenyan endurance runners Vincent O. Onywera , Robert A. Scott , Michael K. Boit & Yannis P. Pitsiladis Food and macronutrient intake of elite kenyan distance runners Onywera VO, Kiplamai FK, Boit MK, Pitsiladis YP. Other papers mentioned: Blood volume and hemoglobin mass in endurance athletes from moderate altitude. Schmidt W, Heinicke K, Rojas J, Manuel Gomez J, Serrato M, Mora M, Wolfarth B, Schmid A, Keul J. East African running dominance: what is behind it? Bruce Hamilton Effects of intermittent exposure to high altitude on blood volume and erythropoietic activity. Schmidt W.

Coevett wrote:

And yet the 'scientists' are still trying to explain Kenyan success. Almost a sick joke at this stage..

https://qz.com/africa/1628684/why-kenyans-keep-winning-marathons-long-distance-races/

Here's to rekrunner's "belief" notion:

http://www.kimbia.net/jeptoos-secret-race/

By Van Rensselaer Townsend

"Now that the Kenyan red dust has settled and the New York race winds subsided, let’s step back, and perhaps forward, and look at the revelations and ramifications of Jeptoo’s alleged positive drug test for EPO.

First, we should look at what EPO does and examine what many say it doesn’t do. Let’s start with the latter claim that any super-talented Kenyan would win a marathon anyway without using the blood-boosting drug. Here, we hear the Kenyan Federation clamor that “outside forces” such as agents, coaches and doctors are taking advantage of naive professional runners. Note that appellation “professional.” Yes, these athletes are pros. They are not some eager kids dreaming of winning a World Marathon Major. And, yes, I’ve been in Kenya and heard the “afraid of taking an aspirin” refrain, but an experienced professional runner who has flown across and around the world, bunked in luxury hotels, and been feted at celebratory banquets is not some rube or ingenue who can’t think for him or herself.

These pros surely know that even a small percentage increase in oxygen-rich red blood cells can give them an edge late in a 42k prize money race. I mention “late” because EPO appears to provide the power to throw down a ridiculously fast final 5k finish after 23 miles of already racing fast. It’s one thing to crank out one’s fastest 5k split after keeping the early pace dawdling for tactical or meteorological reasons. Witness Kipsang’s and Desisa’s breakaway after New York’s lead pack stuck to an historically SLOW pace as they battled the heavy headwinds. Now contrast that situation to what Jeptoo did at Boston. She blazed through her last kilometers on top of an historically FAST first 30k where Shalane Flanagan towed the leaders through successive 5k markers that broke every previous women’s race course record. So, for Jeptoo to lay down such a torrid 5k finish when her legs should have felt normal fatigue was surreal and suspicious. EPO can do that.

Way back in 2003, Outside Magazine ran a story by a writer, Stuart Stevens, who agreed to be a test-subject for the effects of PEDS. I’m not sure the pharmaceuticals were even nicknamed as such back then ! Here’s what Stevens had to say about an endurance cycling event while he was using EPO: “After the EPO kicked in (meaning his buildup injection regimen), I rode a 200-miler and I felt strong, ready to hammer. The next day I easily could have ridden another 200.”

It is clear that EPO is a drug that makes a significant difference in athletic performance for any individual. And now we also know what happens when EPO is used by an already gifted Kenyan runner."

And sure look like Kirwa & Sumgong threw down a fast final 5k at Rio:

https://youtu.be/Flxx18Xm3Zs

You are very transparent. The only thing you prove is that you will look for every possible argument to avoid the unpalatable truth that doping has played a significant role in Kenyan running success.

Interesting hypothesis...

Kenyan Marathoners On The Sauce wrote:

Here's to rekrunner's "belief" notion:

By Van Rensselaer Townsend

... EPO appears to provide the power to throw down a ridiculously fast final 5k finish after 23 miles of already racing fast...

Just like any good scientist, I'm prepared to look at any supporting material for this unpalatable truth. Let's see what you've got to offer.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You are very transparent. The only thing you prove is that you will look for every possible argument to avoid the unpalatable truth that doping has played a significant role in Kenyan running success.

Meanwhile, I will be reading some of these papers that Coevett uncovered.

One study you forgot:

But how do we know this study - and all the others - isn't just "belief"?

From this study what knowledge did we gain about elite performances?

Armstronglivs wrote:

But how do we know this study - and all the others - isn't just "belief"?

Armstronglivs wrote:

But how do we know this study - and all the others - isn't just "belief"?

What a fvcking turd you are. No wonder you are posting you drivel here as you have zero friends.

Coevett wrote:

You claim that EPO can improve performances by 6% then argue that it really doesn't matter because everyone dopes.

Three obvious lies in this introductory sentence. Even for you, that's a lot. Troll somebody else.

We learn for the, on average, 1:03/2:12 altitude-based runners that they improved by 5% right after getting EPO, pretty much like the slower Scots based at sea level. 4 weeks later, the improvement was "only" 3%. But of course you knew that since several months, so yes, I got trolled again.

CONCLUSIONS:

Four weeks of rHuEpo increased the HGB and HCT of Kenyan endurance runners to a lesser extent than in SCO (~17% vs ~10%, respectively) and these alterations were associated with similar improvements in running performance immediately after the rHuEpo administration (~5%) and 4 wk after rHuEpo (~3%).