WTF SERIOUSLY: Lornah Salpeter just ran 2:19:46 Prague ein

The captain of the 80s GB Olympic Team was a convicted 'roider.

Actually, the likelihood of those who were caught cheating cheating again is very high. I take my evidence not only from seeing this happen to multiple athletes who continued after their bans (Justin Gatlin, for instance), but also from criminal recidivism rates, generally in the 90s after 5 years, and my own students caught cheating on early assignments in classes.

Bluesky wrote:

About her big improvement in her time , yes of course is a big jump, but we cant say anything.

Except for the only very important fact that is of a girl that basically without any training was able to run her first marathon in 2:40. And this is a very exceptional talent .

Not just the Marathon, she improved her 5K time by nearly a minute in 2018 from 2017, her 3000m time by 48 seconds in 2018 from 2017, her mile time by 12 seconds, her 10000 time by well over a minute (and by 3 1/2 minutes from 2016). And it's not as if she just started in 2016 or 2017. I find it hard to believe that a 'hobby jogger', as is claimed here, would be running regular track 3K, 5K, 10K races listed by the IAAF from as early as 2011.

Makes Aouita's progression look positively normal.

+1000

Legend of Jonesy wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

6) You need to understand that marathon is a fact of mentality. When you fear the distance, never you can run fast all the race, and this is what happened in the past. We had some exception, like Steve Jones and Carlos Lopes, but were not able to understand their message, thinking they could have run faster, if using a more tranquil approach. Now, the only way to run a marathon (with pacers) is running fast from the start, and this is the interpretation for who is well prepared, but also for who is not prepared, but has this mentality, that in Kenya and Ethiopia is the ONLY mentality of marathon runners.

Great post coach Canova.

Exactly! Someone who knows the sport, unlike the resident anti-Kenyan.

Armstronglivs wrote:

What isn't properly appreciated here is that women like Saltpeter are now running times that would be competitive with top men in the past, like the great Abebe Bikila. He won at Rome in a record 2.15. Anything under 2.20 was world class. And those guys trained hard.

By comparison, the best men's 800 times in the era were around 1.46 - Snell, at Rome. What would we make if women were running times close to that - or even 1.50 - today? So why are these marathon performances getting a pass?

You are stuck in the past, old man.

Bye.

TOPper (or ROPper, or STUPper where STUP is the beginning of stupid), I don't have any proof that EPO would confer no benefit. However, THE FACT I HAD A LOT OF ATHLETES IN TOP 10 IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING SOME WORLD RECORD, AND I KNOW THEY ACHIEVED THESE RESULTS IN COMPLETELY CLEAN WAY, make me thinking that also with EPO could be difficult running faster. And, in any case, the "hypothetical" improvement could only be very little, showing that the percentage presented by some researcher (till 4%) is a TOTAL BULLSHIT, nothing to do with the reality.

Secondly, I'm for banning EPO, other drugs and also some substance at the moment allowed, having the same effect of banned drugs (for example, creatine : under moral point of view, athletes taking nandrolone or creatine want to achieve the same goal). This not because I look at the effect, but because everybody in any sport looks at EXTERNAL AID coming from pharma (or from every kind of fraud) ACTS AGAIN THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SPORT, that in my opinion have to be the principles we MUST have in any moment of our life.

Renato

You have just implicitly conceded that EPO is an external aid. We are making progress. How much aid is an incredibly complex question, but even if you claim your athletes are/were super elite without it (which you would presumably know, although perhaps not guaranteed) this does mean it confers no benefit. You mention 4%. Well even 1/10th of that could determine the outcome if all things are otherwise equal. You claim to be above suspicion in terms of your ethics. Well that is unclear, but surely others are willing to cheat. Surely you are suspicious of some other elite coaches? Let us not play the fool here. Of course the shoes may be an external aid too. What are your thoughts on the shoes?

I intended to write that your claims of success without it does not mean that EPO confers no benefit. I might add that some of your athletes may disagree with you and get this external aid due to the temptations hitch exist and never reveal it to you if you are as pure as the wind driven snow, as you claim to be, despite my doubts.

Some points, especially to the naysayers.

1. She improved geatly on the track because she had never done consistent track training before.

2. She grew up in Kenya dabbling in soccer, pentathlon and other events. She was by no means a real.specialist.

3. Because she has only been doing non taxing jogging in Israel, up until 2017, she has fresh legs, so we should not look at her chrono age, but rather at her competitive athletics age, and that is very recent, so her margin of progression is still high, although it will plateau within the next 3-5 years, logically.

4. She is in the hands of Salpeter and some elite Israeli sport scientists, and just like Mo with Al Sal - she is the perfect lab rat, willing and able to abide by and handle all the progressive training loads given.

5. Weight training. Remember Mo's phenomenal progress when he started lifting with Al ? Same case here. L.S. has transformed her body, going from around 20% bf to around 10%, thanks to the w.t. and restricted calories (1800), when any normal person with her energy requirements would be ingesting 2500-3000.

The above may explain a non linear progression in her case.

Ghost in China

Ghost1 wrote:

The above may explain a non linear progression in her case.

Ghost in China

If you are supporting her, that automatically makes me think it is likely she is doping as you are a consistent apologist for doping.

Hilarious that you use AlSal and Mo as examples, though, keep that up.

And you are confident that men's marathon times today aren't doped? I wouldn't be so sure. But it is interesting that it is only in the marathon, and not any other running event, that women's times are drawing level with the best men's times of the past. I remember Bikila. I simply don't find it credible that women are now approaching his performances. The progress is in doping - as it is in most sports. It has nothing to do with math.

fjtjky wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

What isn't properly appreciated here is that women like Saltpeter are now running times that would be competitive with top men in the past, like the great Abebe Bikila. He won at Rome in a record 2.15. Anything under 2.20 was world class. And those guys trained hard.

By comparison, the best men's 800 times in the era were around 1.46 - Snell, at Rome. What would we make if women were running times close to that - or even 1.50 - today? So why are these marathon performances getting a pass?

You are stuck in the past, old man.

Bye.

The past? You mean before doping became the norm?

dopers r us wrote:

Ghost1 wrote:

The above may explain a non linear progression in her case.

Ghost in China

If you are supporting her, that automatically makes me think it is likely she is doping as you are a consistent apologist for doping.

Hilarious that you use AlSal and Mo as examples, though, keep that up.

Sir, please do not include circumstantial evidence based on previous explanations of why many previous dopers had been manipulated by others to dope.

Let us focus on the present, and all the evidence points to L.S. being absolutely above board and clean.

Chaouita wrote:

Bluesky wrote:

About her big improvement in her time , yes of course is a big jump, but we cant say anything.

Except for the only very important fact that is of a girl that basically without any training was able to run her first marathon in 2:40. And this is a very exceptional talent .

Not just the Marathon, she improved her 5K time by nearly a minute in 2018 from 2017, her 3000m time by 48 seconds in 2018 from 2017, her mile time by 12 seconds, her 10000 time by well over a minute (and by 3 1/2 minutes from 2016). And it's not as if she just started in 2016 or 2017. I find it hard to believe that a 'hobby jogger', as is claimed here, would be running regular track 3K, 5K, 10K races listed by the IAAF from as early as 2011.

Makes Aouita's progression look positively normal.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/israel/lonah-chemtai-salpeter-308491

People here prefer to believe in miracles achieved by training rather than miracles achieved by drugs - which is the more likely.

OK, so Looper mentions the shoes. This was brought up on page 1 of the thread, maybe by the same guy but I don't think so....

Anyway, I don't think she was wearing them. Didn't look like it to me.....

You are changing the subject after caught red-handed with basic reasoning error.

I don't say anything about whether marathon is doped or not. I'm just pointing out that you are stupid when saying women is doped more in marathon because they catch up with 1960's men, while today 800m women haven't catched up with 1960's men.

If you want to point out sex-specific improvement in marathon (doped or otherwise) you have to compare men and women in marathon.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Do the math wrote:

The men-to-women ratio for 800m and marathon (and other distances in between) are about the same (women about 12-15% slower).

Marathon time has been progressing faster (for various factors routinely discussed here).

That doesn't answer the question, of why women marathon runners today could compete with Bikila but female middle distance runners would still be destroyed by Snell. I could suggest that doping for endurance has produced bigger gains for the women.

Likely, as has been displayed in data on here, there longer the event, the greater gains from epo. It really just shows how deep and widespread the drug's use is in this sport.

Chaouita wrote:

Bluesky wrote:

About her big improvement in her time , yes of course is a big jump, but we cant say anything.

Except for the only very important fact that is of a girl that basically without any training was able to run her first marathon in 2:40. And this is a very exceptional talent .

Not just the Marathon, she improved her 5K time by nearly a minute in 2018 from 2017, her 3000m time by 48 seconds in 2018 from 2017, her mile time by 12 seconds, her 10000 time by well over a minute (and by 3 1/2 minutes from 2016). And it's not as if she just started in 2016 or 2017. I find it hard to believe that a 'hobby jogger', as is claimed here, would be running regular track 3K, 5K, 10K races listed by the IAAF from as early as 2011.

Makes Aouita's progression look positively normal.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/israel/lonah-chemtai-salpeter-308491

At age 29