Training Log for a 2:30ish Boston Marathon 2018

For what it is worth, I have found that for both myself and those whom I coach, it isn't uncommon for that back end tempo portion to run a bit slower than tempo pace, and about 1 of 3 times it comes quite a bit closer to marathon pace than tempo pace with the same perceived effort as the early tempo portion.

But I do love, and simultaneously fear, that workout. Agree that one of the best parts of it is that it breaks the 20 miler up nicely, and you never feel like you are out there forever.

Wish I hadn't executed that one so poorly yesterday.

here was last week

M worked late but squeezed in 6mi with last two on treadmill at 10% incline

T 12.7 w/ 2mi 11:11, 8min easy, 6x1min on, 1min off (5:10-5:15ish paces), about 2min easy, then 1mi in 5:14. I used to do this workout for cross country but a little faster throughout and way faster on the final mile. my mile PR is actually from one of these workouts (4:45ish, although I split 4:45 for the first mile of a 2mi time trial once).

W 9.6 easy

Th 8.7 w/ 20min "mona fartlek" covered 3.5mi which wasn't great but it was solo

F 9.8 easy

Sa 6 easy shakeout

Su 16.7 total. 4 up, 10k race 33:30, 6 down. split 16:55/16:35 and felt pretty relaxed. a little too slow in miles 2 and 3 but I was leading a chase pack and nobody was helping me.

total 70 miles in 8h27min (7:15 avg pace)

The tuesday workout went well. I might do it again but with some extra volume somewhere, like a 3mi first tempo or just extra 1min segments in the middle, but it's fun to end with the hard mile. Maybe I'll chase a sub-5 next time as I haven't actually run under 5 in about a year. Thursday's fartlek was okay for a solo effort. Couldn't get moving that well for the second half but kept the offs at a reasonable 6:00-6:30 pace so averaged about 5:45s. Need to get that down to low 5:30s avg.

Lastly, the 10k race was about 7.5/10. Best case scenario was about 33:00 if the start aligned but I ended up in between two packs during the first mile. The second pack caught me and like 13 or 14 guys just sat on me until about 2.5 when one of my teammates charged ahead and dragged me with him. Basically ran 5:20s even until I had maybe 800 to go and I sped up. I probably clocked about 5:10 from 5.2 to 6.2 which could use some improvement for such a comfortable first 5mi.

missed the few splits but hit 16:55 at 5k, 21:45 at 4mi, 27:05 at 5mi, 32:25 at 6mi

I'm still hovering around 80 - 90 miles and had two sessions this week. I still have+ 11 weeks left and want to improve my speed a bit till 8 weeks out and then start to stretch out the tempos.

Did 4 x 1600 on Tuesday in 5:03 w/ 600j what was relatively hard after a long working day and a short tempo yesterday (4 miles at 5:22) with 3 x 400s afterwards in 67-66-63, what actually surprised me bc I didn't go all-out and had a very good, smooth stride.

Still don't know what to exactly shoot for but I guess I am in at least 1:10-11ish HM and 32:00 10k shape right now. We'll see next week when I do a bit longer workouts (I plan something like an 8 mile tempo and a long run/fartlek combo).

Wish everyone a great weekend.

Hi there, I was wondering isn’t 4x1,200 type of workout more specic for a 5K training. I do realize that this is in your initial phase that you call VO2 max phase but perhaps trying Kipchoge style workout, say 10x1,200 roughly at half marathon pace? It is more specific to your objective.

It is definitely a vo2max workout that is more directly beneficial tonhe 5k than the marathon. It is functionally intended to be speed work prior to the main bout of more specific marathon training that followed. This was done 4 months out from the marathon. I was done with those types of workouts 3 weeks ago. They help improve overall fitness, bring LT pace down some, and make LT pace feel more comfortable

Another solid, but unspectacular week for me. Planned step back week on mileage - backed off to 72 miles on all singles. Quality days were 4800/4800/3200 on track at 5:25 avg w/3:00 rest in between, and 4 miles of tempo effort in a race yesterday (I ran for position), then 18 today on hilly clay roads with the last mile at roughly marathon pace.

Back up to my peak mileage of 90 next week.

Thank you for the response.

Coming back to long runs at MP pace, have you considered alternating pace, which I believe is a favourate workout advocated by Renato Canova?

I am just an over-weight hobby-jogger but can run 15km (9.5 miles), 1km slow+2km at MP five timeds (being slow, hitting my MP is probably easier).

This mentally breaks the effort in more managable segments. Renato Canova had Sondre Moen run 24km in this way in workouts before the Fukuoka marathon.

Your training appears very solid and it got you where you are perhaps it may work to change things a bit, including more targetted workouts.

Thanks. The Canova style approach is interesting to me for sure, but I won't change horses 9 weeks out from race day. I have felt extraordinarily well prepared for my three marathons with a Daniels approach, even if I still feel like I've left time on the table in all three (but who doesn't feel that way?).

Still, you can't deny the success others have had with a Canova approach of alterations. Interestingly though, when I had this discussion with someone recently, and parsed through a suggested Canova style block of workouts, the main differences in those workouts and my typical appaorah were how we approached a handful of long runs. Goes to show that there is more common ground than disagreement, even in folks with different styles.

That sounds right. There are certainly more similarities than differences. Based on my interpretation of canova a major difference in the final phase of his approach is there are no long runs for the sake of running long instead there are the specific workouts and some of which happen to be long. There’s a lack of long runs as a weekly ritual.

From there in the document I last saw he had 5 types marathon specific workouts:

1) the medium length marathon pace run. This is about 20k of exactly marathon pace running. He suggests that a half marathon run at marathon pace accomplishes this.

2) long marathon pace intervals like 5x5000. The volume of these increases throughout the phase. These are similar to the long runs with M paced segments which are popular but the key difference I see is that canova isn’t necessarily placing these during a long run. As the volume increases they approach long run length with warmup and cool down but the focus is the volume of the interval portion rather incorporating faster running in a long run.

3) alternating runs like 10x1000 with 1000 recovery. The on 1000s are faster than MP and the recoveries are slower but not that much slower. (ie +/- 3% of MP). It’s closer to a continuous run than a western interval session. These are basically absent from most typical training plans I see. Like 2) incorporating these into long runs isn’t a focus.

4) endurance runs of 30-35 at just slower or at MP. These are meant to be very hard , are essentially dry runs for the big dance. He recommends a taper and approaching it just as you would the marathon. There’s only room for a few of these.

5) special/specific block. These are frequently discussed. Basically a double workout day totaling 45-50k with about half that at MP (for someone running 210k per week). He also mentioned that not everyone does these. For obvious reasons they aren’t for everyone.

So key differences are mp pace workouts aren’t necessarily part of a long run but otherwise look like a mp interval/ long run combo, alternating runs and incorporation of a marathon day dry run.

Sorry for the wall of text. I found thinking about the differences between the programs interesting and wanted to write this out.

This is actually a very nice summary, consistent with the posts by Canova I have seen on letsrun.

I suppose the real question is if you need this to get the push to get from 2:15 under 2:10 in marathon or already to get under 2:30. I would argue for the latter.

What is also interesting is the lack of the classical tempo run in Canova philosophy. The tempo run is also absent in Kipchoge’s training (pointed out in a very nice analysis at

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/09/an-analysis-of-eliud-kipchoges-training-before-his-berlin-marathon-victory.html

)

At one point, Smoove listed a 4mile race on Saturday (=tempo run) plus 18mi long run on Sunday. I believe one of the runs from the groups described above would be much more effective and does not neccessarily imply a big change in training.

canova this, daniels that...doesn't anybody just run?

I'm progressing nicely in my training though short of where I had hoped to be by now. I wish I hadn't run a marathon a couple years ago as I'm struggling to avoid comparing myself to that training block.

Anyway, I ran 80 miles in 8 runs (one 2mi barefoot shakeout was the 8th run on saturday).

Monday and Tuesday were 10mi easy runs

On Wednesday I had no plan so did a 4mi warmup to loosen up and think of a workout. Still had no concrete plan other than doing some tempo stuff plus some faster stuff. Nothing too hard as I had a 4mi race on Saturday. I did 4k on a road loop at tempo pace, ended up 5:39s. Did a half mile jog in ~3.5min then 2x800 in 2:35-2:36 with about 2min jogs, then 2x200 accelerating, about 35 for each with a 200 jog. Turned into a sharpening workout but also my first time doing 800s or 200s in a long time. the 2:35s were too hard but part of that was that I was on the road and not a track.

Thurs and Fri were 9mi then 8mi...not exactly an ideal taper. Both ruuns were too fast too...7:0x/mi

Saturday I felt bad warming up 4 miles and the few strides I did may not have even been under 5:20 pace. The race ended up having way more competition than I expected. It was a flat 4 miler on asphalt but with a good amount of turns. Weather was great. My 10k was equal to about 20:50s I figured so the goal was to run about that. My plan was to hit about 5:17 for the first mile or slower if I was leading. We went out pretty slow and I was still dragging off the pack but just before the mile I felt the pace dragging and I went around the chase pack I was in to split 5:16ish. Carried on solo until a buddy pulled behind me and eventually began to lead our chase group. Hit 2 miles in 10:32ish according to the course markings, as my watch ended up reading 4.04. Started to fall behind my buddy during the 3rd mile but stayed close enough. The pack I had ditched was right on my heels and I wanted to stay ahead and not let myself be content to join the group. We split 15:58 according to the marker for 3 miles. I was in 5th at this point but the man in 3rd was slipping back of the leading pair who had split about 15:45 for 3 miles. Thinking back, I should have surged to join that group during the second mile. Anyway, I continued to slip back of the 4th place man while he caught #3. With 800m to go they probably had 30 meters on me and I was thinking they'd be too far away to catch. Of course, I was wrong and after kicking far too late I nearly caught 4th and 3rd as well. We were 21:09, 21:10, and 21:11. I had too much left in the last 100m as you couldn't see the finish tape until 40m to go. Last mile was 5:12ish which isn't awful but also nothing to brag about. I definitely am missing some gears and the ability to really push hard.

Sorry for the novel there...short story was that I even split a 21:11 which is a bit worse than the 10k I ran in 33:30 last weekend.

Next weekend I'm racing a tough trail 50k...because I'm an idiot, but mainly because I am trying to become a better ultrarunner and taking the opportunities when they come, as I might end up getting the flu the day before Boston anyway.

So the year has officially started for me. Ran 1:13:50 for the Barcelona Half Marathon yesterday. What an incredible race. The fastest course I've ever run (and I've run a few of the good ones like Berlin Marathon). Good effort keeping consistently 3:30 min/km from start to end. Still under low mileage, I've actually ran 60+ miles only once this year. I believe I am in like ~ 2h36 Marathon shape right now.

The plan is now to start real training and have some great weeks in a row until March 24th / March 25th, where I will run another Half (either in Valencia on the 24th or Milano on the 25th). Hoping to get at least a 1h12 finish there and keep improving to pursue the 2h30 attempt by the end of the year.

Wishing a great week to all 2h30 contenders!

If you look at a lot of the Canova workouts, you'll see long repeats at 105% of marathon pace. When you do the math on that, it is essentially tempo pace. Lots of overlap there.

I had a race this week, but normally my second workout of the week is integrated into my long run, with work at 105% of marathon pace early and late, or long runs (13 miles) at 100% of mp. About 3 weeks of the 10 weeks before my taper will just have straight long runs without anything fast included.

In his most recent presentation from late last year, repeats in the last 10 weeks/specific phase are as fast as 103%, which is about 5:32 pace. From that presentation he's adjusted the marathon specific workouts to three following types (2:30 pace times in parentheses):

Long Continuous Run at even pace, run at 90% MP (6:17), lasting from 1 hr 45’ till 2 hr 20’. 2:20 min at 90% of MP would take a substantial total on regular people.

Long Continuous Run at even pace, run at 96% ‐ 100% MP (5:56 down to 5:43), lasting from 25 km to 40 km. Most mortals won't likely approach 40km for these.

(The difference between the above two is that you alternate between focusing on time vs. focusing on covering distance. A strange nuance of his approach.)

Long Continuous Run alternating medium distances (2‐6 km) at 98% ‐ 103% of MP with short distances (1 km) at 80% of MP, for a total volume of 23‐34 km. E.g. 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 km increasing speed (rom 98% MP (5:50) to 103% MP (5:32) alternated with 1 km at 80% MP (6:51) (32 km total). Again his examples have a ton of volume.

In the phase prior to the specific phase, there's lots of work around threshold pace though combined with lower intensity long runs and strength training (circuits, hill sprints, continuous uphill runs). The specific training really doesn't differ that much other than his example workouts being nearly impossible for a normal human not running 13 times per week / 210 km and with normal recovery capabilities.

The question for me then is if you can only do 1:45 or 25km of his continuous runs and won't progress close to the full distances for those are you better off focusing shorter more intense workouts with the aim of improving AT, rather than specificity?

Yes, this does in fact resemble Canova’s workouts more and it is more marathon-specific.

The HM at MP must be quite hard, do you typically aim to find a race for this workout?

I try to - I can usually find at least one half marathon per cycle that works from a timing perspective. The other two are often done outside of a race setting. Much, much more manageable in a race setting, although still hard enough that I always think to myself "How am I ever going to do that twice?"

Smoove - you may have touched on this previously, but when in the training cycle do you do the 13 milers at MP? I'm tentatively planning on doing a long run of 17 miles with 12-13 at MP about 15-16 days out from Boston. Some people say this kind of pace work is too aggressive just a couple weeks from the race?

For reference, my MP is 6:30-6:40 so much slower and less taxing than those of you on this thread.

Smoove wrote:

I try to - I can usually find at least one half marathon per cycle that works from a timing perspective. The other two are often done outside of a race setting. Much, much more manageable in a race setting, although still hard enough that I always think to myself "How am I ever going to do that twice?"

Hey Smoove. This is interesting. I just did 9 miles at what I was thinking might be marathon effort this past weekend, and I was definitely thinking that was hard and doing another couple hours at that pace would in no way be possible. And maybe I was a bit fast, so there is that. I haven't done a marathon yet, so I was just trying to feel things out and there are so many unknowns.

But I know you've had quite a few successful buildups and races. What allows you to go from that 13 at MP and feel pretty bad at the end to executing on race day? More time with the training? Taper? The mental confidence of having done it and continuing to build on things? Curious, as always, to hear your insights.

Haha, Daniels calls for them to be 3, 6 and 9 weeks out from race day. I try to remain consistent with that, but I will bounce things around depending on the availability of half-marathon races to use for this purpose, the availability of friends to pace me, and how I am feeling in a given week. I did it three weeks out before my best outcome (Chicago 2015) and before my first marathon (NYC 2014), and two weeks out before Boston last year (although I cut it down to 10 miles that day). I felt sufficiently recovered before Boston last year.

Consistency, there is no way to explain it other than to say that you have to experience it first hand. It is shocking how hard this can feel in training, yet how manageable it feels (until it doesn't) on race day. I suspect it is due in part to the taper, in part to having done it 3 times, but mostly to the fact that race day performances always just feel more magical, whether due to endorphins, confidence, freshness, however you want to categorize "race day magic." Imagine trying to run 2400m at 5k pace in training. While doing 1000s or 1200s is pretty manageable, and doing 1600s is doable but very uncomfortable, doing 2400 would be downright awful and perhaps unmanageable. Yet in a race setting, you are still feeling relatively decent at that point on race day, with the real pain still being another 1/2 mile or so away.

Smoove good points on Canova 105% being close to tempo pace/intensity. At Hansons we did workouts 10-sec/mile faster than marathon pace and 20 sec/mile faster than marathon pace. There was also the infamous 2 x 6-mile at 5-sec/mile faster (although we usually just did it as fast as possible). Somewhere inbetween was about half marathon PR pace (essentially Lactate Threshold Tempo pace since we were all in the sub 65-min range for a half). You seem to have a lot of experience with marathons. The basic formula is always just running "around marathon pace" for a lot of miles in targeted Long Runs and longer workouts. Usually slightly faster than marathon pace in the 2km-5km-8km repeats and averaging slightly slower than M.P. for a bulk of some long runs in the 32km range. I call that "Uptempo" as it is not true "Tempo or Lactate Threshold." As you mentioned earlier with the 1200m repeats, one seems to get a boost in Running Economy from the traditional Daniels "Vo2max style intervals"...even if they are only at 10km pace and 95% Vo2max/Max HR. Gets the legs turning over a good 20-25/sec mile faster than Marathon Pace. We used to blast 16-mile "Simulators" at Hansons at goal MP. Often we'd run faster than what we would race the marathon in 5 weeks later. It was brutal. Basically we'd get in our uniform and get all amped up like it was a race (and have pacers if not the whole group running a solid pace). Sometimes it was too much I think. I think that one can be successful in the marathon without any actual "Marathon Pace Training" (whatever that means). First of all, a lot of people don't know exactly what their current MP is. It certainly helps if they have just raced a 10km or half though. They could have a "goal pace" of 5:40/mile or a sub 2:30, but sometimes gauging one's currently fitness is a big moving target. Now if you hit a range of workouts in in the 5:50-5:15/mile pace spectrum (coupled with a lot of consistent high mileage), you are probably getting a lot of big aerobic gains, fat burning gains, stamina/endurance and specific leg strength for racing a 2:30ish. So maybe you never actually do a "MP run at 5:40 pace" but if you do 2-mile repeats at 5:25 pace and Long Runs with some 5:50s in the them (along with Strides and repeat 1km-miles at 5:15 pace) you have covered a very specific spectrum....much like a Canova range of 90%-110% Also for those of you training for Boston: Remember the extended downhill first 5km-8km! Get used to some rolling hills too...the "transition from downhills to uphills" (Newton Hills hit 7-8% grade, but are generally only 3-4% grade for up to 1km).

Smoove wrote:

If you look at a lot of the Canova workouts, you'll see long repeats at 105% of marathon pace. When you do the math on that, it is essentially tempo pace. Lots of overlap there.

I had a race this week, but normally my second workout of the week is integrated into my long run, with work at 105% of marathon pace early and late, or long runs (13 miles) at 100% of mp. About 3 weeks of the 10 weeks before my taper will just have straight long runs without anything fast included.