Mihaly Igloi

jmsquare -

Can you tell us how the fresh, good, and hard efforts related to time or speeds. For example, when you ran fresh 100s, how did it relate to your best time over the distance? Did you run 20 seconds at fresh and could run 11 seconds at full-effort? Was good 16 seconds? I'd like to relate the efforts to times and you could make this possible.

Thanks so much!

Tinman

at

runfastcoach@gmail.com

Tinman,

At the time I ran for Igloi I was running 4:15, 9:08, 14:04 all mile races. At my level the speed range for a 400 meters would be: fresh = 90, good = 70, hard = 60.

Ghost of Igloi

tinman, from my brief interaction with training the Igloi method, it's pretty much impossible to associate fresh, good, and hard efforts with times.

It varies based on if your doing 100s, 400s, 800s, 1miles, or longer. For example doing in and out miles, fresh would correspond roughly to between LT and AT, while good would be around 10k effort or slightly faster.

While doing 200s, good was roughly mile pace, hard was somewhere around 800 pace or maybe faster, fresh was around LT or so. Easy was slow slow jogging.

Tinman,

While I was training with Coach Igloi, he sometimes timed us but he never let me know what the times I was running were. It was the effort that we were running that was key and we just had to do the running and not think about it. In fact my other coaches seldom gave me times either. It was their job to see that the tempo was correct. Igloi always knew what each runner was doing.

I do remember him telling me to pick it up or back off a little on occassion. He also would comment after a workout that ones technique was poor or had improved or was good or that we would soon start hard training, then harder training and after that hardest training. At the time I did not think there was harder training! There is one day when I may have run a personal best quarter but I was never given the time.

One of my two coaches from 1987-1997, Mike Durkin (USA Olympian 1976/1980 1500m) was coached by Joe Douglas of Santa Monica TC, the coach/director of the famed club. Joe was the one that coached Mike in an Igloi fashion, and thus, Mike coached me the same way.

I have to agree with the other Igloi posts - when you went home after a track workout, you were very tired. Many times, I would fall asleep on the floor, laying flat, from being so tired.

js

Tinman, as a couple others have mentioned, you can't relate the efforts to paces. The way the training works the runner just worries about the effort. The coach is able to use the runner's percieved effort and match it to the times for the distance to know if the runner is tired or in better shape than before, where their strengths/weaknesses currently are, that type of thing. The runner almost never knows the exact pace of any workout under this coaching methodology. Trying to achieve specific paces during the workouts completely negates the point of training this way.

I have been training using Bob Schuls handbook, I agree about the training paces, Bob uses just three efforts fresh, good and hard. Simple but effective so far. The main point he emphasizes is to work in the area of 70 to 80 % of MHR and thats why he calls it effort- interval system

Ghost: Its been 25 years since I last heard from you. I just want you to know that the discipline you helped me develop at N.M.J.C. in New Mexico and Barton County in Kansas paid off beyond my dreams. I'm still competing with the same ferocity, even after 34 years of racing. I've helped many young runners with Igloi's ideas. Reid, I am reaching through the past to teach my own children our shared discipline. Thank you, Coach. Quinn.

Mighty,

Where are you at now? Check out the results of USATF Masters Cross Country Club Championsips last weekend. Look at age 55-59.

Ghost of Igloi

Ghost,

Great to see your race results after all these years! I'm teaching school in Grants,New Mexico (21 years here now).

Grants is at 6500' altitude in the San Mateo Mountain Range. Still racing while raising my two little kids in elementary school. Please tell P. she's done a great job as mom to your kids. Your younger one's academic accomplishments are very impressive. Excellent results on all fronts for you! I also saw your response on the OMBTS thread. Thanks again, Coach. (For more than you realize).

Sample Week of Training in May before a 5000m race on Sat

Sunday:8am 15km run on trails 54.38 20x100 shake-up

4pm 1500m jog 6x1/2 lap of 480-500m grass field 10xshake-up

Monday: 6am 16 laps of 500m grass field 1 lap easy/1 lap good

5pm 12x1lap good Average 1.27 jog 15 min 4x100 all out

Tuesday:am 8 lap run on 1000m field

pm 40 min easy flat run on trails 20xsu

Wednesday am cinder track 8x200/120 4/good to 4/hard 36,34,32,32,33,31,31,29.8

pm cinder track 6x800/400 2.25,2.30,2.33,2.34,2.31,2.27

jog 10 min 12x200 hard 35,35,36,33.5,35,35,34,33,33,33,33,31.5

Thursday: am easy 40 min on grass field

pm easy same as am and 20xsu

Friday:am 25 min grass then travel to North Carolina

pm pre race at track

Saturday: am jog 15 min

2pm RACE 85 degrees and muggy 5000m 15.31 AR WR

Mighty,

My son is a research assistant at Georgia Tech in the mechanical engineering graduate school. He is also a very good student. Portia and I are very lucky. Thanks for the nice thoughts. You made my day.

Ghost of Igloi

Tinman, I wish my best 100 was 11 seconds,but it was more like

13.5 wind aided. I think fresh,good, hard are based on individual effort and how that feels to them. Once you know that effort level you can repeat over and over.

This has been very interesting reading. I finally had a chance to read all the views. At the World XC in 1981, after the race, one of my teammates told me that Igloi was there and wanted to meet me. Unfortunately I had to report to the doping control because I was top 3 and he left before I got out.

Some of my training for ten years was based on the Igloi methods. My coach worked with him in California while prepping for the marathon and was able to integrate several of Igloi�s ideas into my program.

I think one of the key facets of all the training was paying attention to important details of every training session. To name a few are 1.proper execution of shake-ups, warm-up and cool down phase, 2. layers of clothing appropriate for sections of the training and weather

3. running surface (mainly grass, dirt and trails)

4. active recoveries on the grass inner section of the track

5. long runs in controlled environments where the coach can observe and think about future training dependent on how you look.

Fresh, good, hard and all out were used as was swing and speed tempos. Sometimes I just ran with no exact instruction so my coach could see if I was naturally incorporating speed or swing at the critical time. Sometime I was told precisely, such as 150s 50sp/50sw/50sp. If you watch the Russian middle distance woman from the 70�s and 80�s, they clearly switched tempos in the latter stages of races. I did a lot of speed training (which was any distance 150 or less)

My training was extremely challenging form day to day, but I was always mentally and physically ready for competition in XC, indoor and outdoor track.

I basically knew nothing about training when I took up running so this was the only method I knew. It worked for me, but I was very precise about details. I coach at the college and high school level and student-athletes today have access to too much running info and sometime become confused, so I keep the training simplistic but am fastidious about details. I have very few injuries with student athletes I coach.

I have to admit....I hated running 10 miles or more (for example) on the inside (grass) of the track, instead of just leaving the track on a road course. I don't think Joe was watching me 1/2 the time anyway, which was one of the reasons, he told us. You just had to put your mind into a trance for those 50 laps...lol...or watch others do intervals...

jmsquare -

Thanks for sharing your history of training.

Question:

Now that you are a coach, what have you retained from your racing and training experiences that you use now? Also, what key things do you find work well now that were not part of your personal running experience?

Thanks so much!

Tinman

runfastcoach@gmail.com

Greta Eppert-Warren wrote:

Igloi just died tonight!!!!

He died in January of 1998. What do you mean by this?

To Tinman,

My goal in coaching is to try and facilitate each individual to maximize there potential in tandem with gender, talent, and maturity level .How can that be accomplished without injury?

I use a lot of the ways I trained in regard to running shake-ups, surfaces, intervals and controlled long runs. I am very strict with wearing proper clothing. All training is based on one/day. Occasionally I implement patterns of 100�s on grass, but this has to be monitored closely because most do not understand the patterns and could easily get injured. All intervals are metrically based (lots of 100,150,300s,500s,1000s).

In high school I use 2000m �4000m as a base of total interval and at College 3000m-5000m. Shake-ups and build-ups are maintained throughout all phases of any season.

I have learned sometimes an easy day is better than hard. Rest is best for High Schoolers, and College especially at the end of the school year when there are several activities going on.

Very rarely when I do come across an athlete who is intrinsically motivated and talented, I let talent take a natural progression. I use frequency, intensity and duration as quantitative guides. Each individual is unique.

jmsquare -

Thanks for sharing your insights!

I haven't read back through all of this thread, but I did see that Orville had somewhat disappointing marathon results while training under Igloi. I am interested in knowing if other marathoners trained under Igloi and if they reached their best times using his methods. From the little reading I've done it looks like a fantastic training method for 1500-10000 runners. I'm not so sure about beyond that.

Sorry if this has already been answered.