What is this Falcon "didn't live up to his potential" poop?
NCAA indoor 3,000 m champ 1987 & 1988, indoor mile champ 1988, outdoor 10,000 m champion 1987, outdoor 1,500 m champion 1988 and cross country champion 1987.
3:49.31 in the mile. # 3 in the world.
What else was he supposed to do to satisfy you?
Good point Chub, I guess someone thinks his potential is a 3:45 mile and maybe do a marathon in 2:03 or so, and not be able to "retire" from high level competition when he wanted to.
Oh ya and we did run up a pretty serious hill to get to the trail on top of the small mountain just to the west of campus, and quite often those trail runs turned into a progression run that dipped well under 6min. per mile pace! The 14.5 mile long run we did on most Sundays also turned into a progression run where we did the last several miles at well under 6min. per mile. I recored in my running log that we hit it in around 1:25 pretty regularly. My best was a 1:22:40 for the 14.5 miler and a 1:51 for the 18 miler (it might have actually been 18.5 miles). I only did the 18 miler one time in my time at Arkansas.
Let me clarify. I'm as big a fan of Joe Falcon as anybody. I grew up in Missouri. I chased his High School records, and even broke one of his meet records in the 1600. The guy was my hero as far as running goes. He killed the college ranks as I stated, and had more talent and range than any mid and long distance American runner as evidenced by his NCAA titles in everything from the 1500 to the 10k. As far as "not living up to his potential" we are merely speaking in terms of post collegiate results. He did run 3:49.3 for the mile and won the Dream Mile in the process, which is awesome! He never medaled in the World Championships, Olympics, and I don't think he ever medaled in the U.S. National Championships. I believe that's what is meant by "didn't live up to his potential." I'm not going to judge Joe though. He did way more than I ever did. He's a hero in my book!!
My story of John, as a non razorback who had moved into town in 79. I was a middle of the road collegiate runner, but still "full of running" when i got to town. I had just started a career and did my running based on what i did in college. The two a days fizzled out as I didn't have enough energy to work full time and run 5m in the morning and 10m at night that i was trained to do. I eventually got hooked up with some of the Arkansas runners and met John. He actually took me into his tutelage and helped me with a once a day program modeled after his guys, except for the marathon. Same sequence and workouts, early long intervals, late week race/or short intervals or steady state. So I trained once a day, but instead of 4 and 8 or 10, I did one 12 mile run on the golf course. Sunday long runs of 18 progressing to under six minute pace at the end of the run, monday easy 12, tuesday 6 x 1m uphill in the golf course (need to explain that, it's a 1.5 mile loop where you start at the bottom, the first half is flat, the second to the top of the hill. then you jog the half back down to the bottom to start the next). The year he did my personalized training program for a 29 year old guy, i did six times a mile uphill every tuesday all summer in preparation for the NY Marathon. He had me race or do short intervals on the weekend and that was it. When fall hit, we switched to 3 uphill miles, 1 down, 1 up and the last down. For me that was 4:45 up and 4"30 down. This program got me a 5 minute pr in New York. And in fact pr 5k, 10k and 15K on the way. He cut me to 70% of the volume in the last month of training and by the time of the marathon I was sharp. Of course this is all relative to a guy who cannot break a 60 second quarter or a 4:20 mile. I got a 2:25 in NY with poor pacing. 1:10 for the first half just ahead of Shorter. 1"15 for the second half just staying ahead of Allison Roe at the finish. Thought this would be an interesting perspective for not superstars. John cared about anyone who wanted to improve their running even if it was a non Arkansas athlete that loved running.
ChubsyUbsy wrote:
What is this Falcon "didn't live up to his potential" poop?
NCAA indoor 3,000 m champ 1987 & 1988, indoor mile champ 1988, outdoor 10,000 m champion 1987, outdoor 1,500 m champion 1988 and cross country champion 1987.
3:49.31 in the mile. # 3 in the world.
What else was he supposed to do to satisfy you?
Chub. You obviously know nothing about what went on at Arkansas. Just because one if a multiple NCAA champ that does not mean they lived up to their potential. John always felt Joe could be the first American under 13:00 minutes, and be a player on the world scent (No, 1 3:49 mile and a Goodwill Games win does not make one a world player). Joe should have been an Olympic or WC finalist.
DOC
dminer wrote:
Oh ya and we did run up a pretty serious hill to get to the trail on top of the small mountain just to the west of campus
BIG BRUCE!!
I was there when late 90's/2000 era
I remember when Lincoln was a frosh, he was redshirting and he was telling me how he had to go see coach because he wasn't going to run that weekend at the chili pepper because he was going back home for home coming with his high school girlfriend. I laughed my ass off at him and told him not to tell coach that. (remember, this was still when he was a walk on 420 miler) Crazy what he turned into.
That team drank a lot. No good/over the top stories, just remember on top of regular drinking, every 3 or so weeks we would throw down hard and flush the system as coach would call it.
Power was the strongest physically on the team
Kaley was the strongest mentally--also weird dude when drunk
Will never know how Kerr ran so well, he took every day as
an easy day.
Daily was tough as nails
Seneca and Ryan travis hated each other...mainly seneca
Murry was a team favorite. Just always a happy dude.
As for sharif Karie, there are plenty of stories about him, most not flattering so won't share. million dollar talent, bum work habit.
2000 was really the begining of the end for Coach mac. started letting all types of random post grads show up and train in fayettville and took away from the team and the post-grad hogs. And I am talking random dudes would show up. 26 year old 152 guys or 347 guys
Been reading the thread interested to hear how Karie did at Arkansas.
Wasn't he an All-American in the 1500 his first year? He had a great work ethic in high school from what I recall. What happened?
I agree, but actually Falcon's mile in 1990 was the fastest in the world that year
If you want to say "did not live up to his potential", you can include 99% of the Razorback distance runners (post college) and if John Mc has a fault, it is simply that he did not leave them able to do much after college.
Yes, Joe had great potential, maybe the best for any American born distance athlete, but John definitely has to bear part of the blame for Falcon's short post collegiate career. Joe is a friend of mine and I know for a fact that he was hurt (achilles injury) and never really recovered physically and it eventually took him down! Potential is a great word that we throw around, but many a great athlete never got the opportunity because of injuries, etc.
My vote would go for Falcon; fairly unheralded out of hs - as a true frosh, was a major reason they won their first NCAA XC title. He then went on to win multiple NCAA individual titles from the 1500 to the 10k and xc. Yes, he could of won 2-3 more,at least, but young man had a great Razorback career. How many team titles did they win during Falcon's career at Arkansas; that should mean alot!!
I believe DeWayne won the Penn Relays 5k in 1993 for the youngsters info.
I'd pick Cragg as Mac's greatest. Fine, so post college hasn't been great but nobody could tear up NCAAs quite like him. And he had pretty much quit running when McDonnell recruited him!
Side note: who out of AR has the most individual track&field/XC titles? Cragg has seven. Is there someone with more? I'm not completely up to speed on razorback history
Falcon 7 time
Mike Conley 9 time
The Greatest Joe Falcon Races:
1. Oslo Dream Mile 3:49
2. Owning 3:33 Kenyan Kip Cherouyiat in front of packed Franklin Field on the 1989 DMR anchor
I will go with Falcon - I am comparing just collegiate career and Falcon was All American four times in XC, 24th, 7th, 2nd and 1st while he was 18, 19, 20, and 21 years old.
Cragg was very much a favorite and I enjoyed watching him, but his first NCAA All American was not until he was 21. The age factor while at Ark is not apples to apples comparison. Falcon was on better teams and often did what he needed to at Nationals to help his team win the title. It is close, but because of the success from 18-22 for Joe, I will have to vote for him!!!
Cragg gets my vote as top Hog. The guy gives away 1 NCAA title to Lincoln then has his 5k title defense taken away by John Chaplin -( one of the biggest $#itbags ever)
Top Collegiate Races for Cragg:
1. Indoor 3k Vs Nick Willis- one of the most epic races in collegiate history and I think Coach Macs favorite race.
2. Indoor 3k Collegiate Record 7:38. Sick
3. Solo 13:16 at Stanford.
He was a little older than Falcon but had a tough life during the 18-20 timeframe. I think he was smoking and living on the streets when he was 20.
hogFTW wrote:
Cragg gets my vote as top Hog. The guy gives away 1 NCAA title to Lincoln then has his 5k title defense taken away by John Chaplin -( one of the biggest $#itbags ever)
Top Collegiate Races for Cragg:
1. Indoor 3k Vs Nick Willis- one of the most epic races in collegiate history and I think Coach Macs favorite race.
2. Indoor 3k Collegiate Record 7:38. Sick
3. Solo 13:16 at Stanford.
He was a little older than Falcon but had a tough life during the 18-20 timeframe. I think he was smoking and living on the streets when he was 20.
I agree. This is why I said Cragg as the greatest. The 2 years prior to his move to Arkansas were pretty horiffic on a personal level. Regarding the whole age thing, Cragg was 21 when he started and he achieved 7 NCAAs, 13 time All-American over 3 years VS the younger Falcon over 4 years. I don't think it fair to write him off purely on age especially considering the circumstances he arrived under