Top All Time Kansas Distance guys

McLeod said:

The 23:41 was a winning time at Our Home XC course in Pittsburg Ks. I will say that our Coach Dave Suenram was very accurate on this course . Ron Tabb of club Midwest set that race up going out in 4:30.John Prashunn of S.M.S. pushed me the whole race this was Fall 1976. (quote)

Here is the race Mcleod is talking about. (another one from my scrapbook, lol). I was running for Club Midwest at that point, along with Charlie Gray, Ed Crumm, Tom Koppes, Tom Logan, Marcus Canipe, Chuck Copp, Tony Brien, Terry Cornelius among others. I think we would have won this tough meet, but our #1 guy, Tony Brien couldn't make it. (such is the life of the post collegiate runner). This was a very fast race. Nobody ran faster than this in the succeeding years. Rabuse, Mcleod, Arkansas guys, etc. Alot of people had 5 mile prs this day. Coach Suenram of Pittsburg State was very welcoming to Club Midwest in letting us in his triangular meet with SMS and CMS. The same can't be said for some other coaches. We were all set to run in the SMS Invitational, a big X-C meet, but John McDonnell of Arkansas protested us running and we were uninvited. That incident has tempered my admiration of Coach McDonnell, I have to admit. Here we are, post collegiate guys, just trying to work, go to school, train the best we can and find decent meets to run in and a guy from Ireland with foreigners on his team protests us running in Missouri. go figure.

X-C meet, Pittsburg, Ks; Oct 9, 1976

5 MILES, flat

Teams

SMS: 44

PSU: 45

CMW: 52

CMS: 76

INDIVIDUALS:

1) Mcleod:PSU 23:41

2) Prasuhn: SMS 23:45

3) Rabuse: 24:05

4) Wise: PSU 24:22

5) Tabb: CMS 24:27

6) Scott: CMW 24:29*

7) Koppes: CMW 24:29*

8) Gray: CMW 24:29* *these 3 tied

9) Tideman: SMS 24:39

10) Roth: SMS 24:43

11) Orndorff:SMS 24:45

12) Kuhman: SMS 24:46

13) Ellis: CMS 24:49

14) Conover: PSU 24:51

15) Copp: CMW 24:56

16) Logan: CMW 25:00

17) Crumm: CMW 25:02

18) Clear: CMS 25:05

19) Mittenhaus:CMS25:07

20) Vujinich: SMS 25:16

21) Denny: CMS 25:21

22) Nash: SMS 25:22

23) Parker: PSU 25:23

24) Williams:SMS 25:25

25) Hall: CMW 25:26

26) Canipe: CMW 25:27

27) D.Clark: SMS 25:32---current KU coach?

28) Clinesmith-PSU 25:33

29) Cornelius-CMW 25:40

30) Abella-PSU 25:48

from the article in the Pittsburg Sun:

"Mcleod, Prasuhn and Rabuse ran together through most of the race after completing the 1st mile in 4:32, the 2 mile in 9:20, the 3 mile in 14:05 and the 4 mile in 18:50, leaving the rest of the field behind. The field of 40 runners ran faster than any other field of competitors. The top 15 broke 25 minutes on a course where 10th place would have won most meets in the past over the 5 mile layout."

this looks like a barn burner of a race. I recognize alot of oldtimer names in those results.

Matt Noonan was my archrival in high school. He is still in school and training I guess, I saw he was rabbitting some stuff in Missouri in January.

jscott wrote:

Schmidt was the 'best'. I guess Van Rose at SMNW is the Schmidt of 'today'?

Van Rose was an assistant to Vernon Schmidt for a short period so must have learned a lot from a hall-of-fame coach:

Girls & Boys State Titles since 1956:

SMNW - 30

SMS - 7

Boys State Titles since 1956:

SMNW - 18

SMS - 5

Obviously many of the SMNW titles came after Schmidt left coaching (and I've forgotten what year that was) so it's not a perfect comparison but I think it's safe to say that Rose has earned the title of "best" without taking anything away from the great SMS coach.

Should have mentioned that the above stats refer to cross country team titles not any individual cross titles or any track titles.

wow, I had no idea. (I've been living out of state for many years). It seems from your stats that Rose has gone well past the 'legend of Verlyn Schmidt' at this point. Is he as intense as Schmidt and pour on the volume and tough year round training? I remember Van in the early 70's, as a top road runner in the KC area, at a time when you saw very few post collegiate runners showing up at the local road races at Shawnee Mission Park, etc. He was a good runner and it appears, an even better coach.

you have to remember that SMNW has only existed since 1969 and was pretty bad, (like an expansion team), for 5 years or so.

SMNW wrote:

you have to remember that SMNW has only existed since 1969 and was pretty bad, (like an expansion team), for 5 years or so.

Yeah, excellent point. Plus, again not to take anything away from Schmidt/SMS, Schmidt started coaching long before Rose so he did have the advantage of a "running start" for a little while as well.

Both are all-timers. It is probably no coincidence that Schmidt's high school coach was none other than Bob Timmons.

Schmidt had a run from 75-80 where his boys team only lost the track title once (77), they were 2nd that year. His run from the late 60's to 80 is extremely impressive. His team also had a stable of throwers that were national caliber. All of the below performances are better than what you will find in the NW record book.

800

33 1:54.2 Craig Carter SMS 1979

38 1:54.3 Dave Anderson SMS 1969

38 1:54.3 Kevin Kenney SMS 1975

38 1:54.3 Steve Smith SMS 1980

1600

Steve Smith, SM South (1980) 4:05.96yn

Brent Steiner, SM South (1979) 4:09.5y

Kevin Kenny, SM South (1976) 4:11.6y

Reed Eichner, SM South (1976) 4:11.8y

Dave Anderson, SM South (1969) 4:12.6y

3200

Brent Steiner, SM South (1979) 8:43.59ny

Reed Eichner, SM South (1976) 8:57.6y

Dave Anderson, SM South (1969) 9:00.0ny

SM South (1972) 3:17.4y

SM South (1980) 7:50.7

Shot

Clint Johnson, SM South (1980) 69-01.5

Mark Sutherland, SM South (1977).(64-1.25) 67-05.5 i

Disc

Clint Johnson, SM South (1980) 213-06

Mark Sutherland, SM South (1977) 202-03

Scott Lofquist, SM South (1978) 200-00

jscott wrote:

wow, I had no idea. (I've been living out of state for many years). It seems from your stats that Rose has gone well past the 'legend of Verlyn Schmidt' at this point. Is he as intense as Schmidt and pour on the volume and tough year round training? I remember Van in the early 70's, as a top road runner in the KC area, at a time when you saw very few post collegiate runners showing up at the local road races at Shawnee Mission Park, etc. He was a good runner and it appears, an even better coach.

First, thank you for reminding me his name was Verlyn not Vernon (no wonder I couldn't find his name under google search.)

Second, I don't think any coach was as outwardly intense as Schmidt. Schmidt was unequivocally old school. Rose was new school. You SMS guys had a big squad when I was running ('77-'80) and many times we'd have practice at Shawnee Mission Park the same day the SMS runners were out there. Schmidt would get in his car with his blow horn and drive off with the fastest running group while the slowest group would break out their skate boards as soon as his car was out of sight. From the outsider's perspective it looked like a strange world -- fantastic talent like Steiner and Smith in the front, trouble-makers at the back. I sort of felt a little sorry for Schmidt because he had that hardcore-but-well-intentioned militaristic-(and very knowledgable)style of coaching (from the other team's view anyway) but with a number of runners in the late 70's who didn't seem to respond well to it. Rose was equally intense inside but he had it well hidden under a truly modest personality. I used to stand behind them at the SM North Relays -- it was pretty funny -- Schmidt would be screaming/cheering for his relay runners "pass him! pass him! that's it!" (referring to passing a NW runner) and loud enough to rub it into Rose's ear, who was standing next to him. In this particular race the NW team was lucky enough to pass SMS at the end, to which Rose said, "Yep, that'll do" fairly quietly but definitely just loud enough for Schmidt to hear him. Both very successful coaches but with very different personalities. I think they had a cordial-but-bitter-rival co-existence.

btw, I went to SMN....your story about Schmidt was exactly how things were when I ran against him, 70-72. It was fun because we would really love to 'bug him' and his sidekick, Clipboard Charlie. We would have the shouting matches in the infield during races spurring on our respective runners. It was fun, cause he would get down on 'our level' with the smack-talk, with a bunch of 16-18 year old kids. He was the guy we loved to hate! (but respected what he did). He would run around with that green and yellow stocking cap, being loud and obnoxious. It was great! From the track meets to the off season stuff, he and his 'troops' were always there in numbers in better shape than the rest of us. I know our coach thought he was insane....lol...We were running against Schmidt and trying to beat him as much as we were his guys. He was a 4:13 miler at KU and grew up in western Ks, small town. He was an original. It was too bad he got railroaded out of coaching the way he did. My brother used to see him refereeing youth basketball games, that his kids were in, back in the 90s.

How did he get railroaded out of coaching?

Also what western KS town was he from?

thanks.

I saw coach Schmidt as well reffing games of my sons...one day I sat up in the stands and started giving him trouble...he kept looking up to see who was yelling at him and he couldn't tell then in the middle of the game he stopped it and came into the stands and when he saw it was me he started laughing and felt really embaressed...we talked for quite awhile after the game and then shortly later he passed away...I really liked the man...and he obviously had some great athletes...

LOL . . . I like your description better and I'd totally forgotten about Clipboard Charlie (like you I moved away a couple of decades ago and I don't think most people know that a significant part of the "running boom" of the period came from SMNorth.) Yeah, Schmidt was always in your face and it was fun, for good or bad, to stradle that line between respect and intentionally trying to piss him off. He gave to the running community though. The off-season races he organized and ran during the off-season months at SMPark were great. I too was saddened by the way he was railroaded out -- didn't seem fair at all. Having seen first hand the trouble makers at the back I have no doubt Verlyn was trying to teach those kids life-lessons about discipline but his style of doing it had grown out-dated.

Rose, btw, was a 9:03 2-miler for K-State -- no wonder they were rivals.

more info wrote:

what western KS town was he from?

thanks.

went to a Catholic high school in Hays, Ks.

catholic boy wrote:

went to a Catholic high school in Hays, Ks.

Correct. Saint Josephs in Hays. He was the AA Mile champ in 1954 with a 4:32.1

I think Roger Jennings ran a 3:41 1500m while at Emporia - that would put him top 20

Coach Schmidt was a piece of work... I remember at the 72 cross country regionals I let him get inside my head. We were about a half mile from the finish and I was running about ninth and three of his guys were right behind me. He's running alongside screaming his lungs out and yells... get that dog faced bastard. I just about fell over, I couldn't believe what was coming out of his mouth. I folded up like a cheap suit and finished about 20th. It was awful... but I still respected the guy.

I remember when he got the axe. He had a kid that was mouthing off during practice. As I recall something the kid did resulted in a scuffle and it got physical. I remember sending a news crew to cover the school board meeting where a bunch of his old runners showed up to speak out against his dismissal. If it had happened ten years earlier they would have never canned him but by the time he was let go which was about 82 or 83 South wasn't quite the powerhouse in track and cross country that it had been in the 70's.

It is probably no coincidence that Schmidt's high school coach was none other than Bob Timmons.

Are you saying that Timmons was the high school coach at St Joseph Catholic school in Hays, Ks. in the early 50's before ending up at Wichita East by the end of the 50's?