Kenya is a country rife with doping and the Montverde high school thing is historically a complete one off anomaly.
You've brought in two anecdotes and then completely distorted and twisted the reality of the underlying patterns there. You make it seem like there is zero reason to be more suspicious about Kenyans doping. And then you present Marion Jones and Montverde High school, which are literally the only documented instances of this kind of high school doping ever, as some kind of widespread phenomenon.
Your argument is completely irrational. So what is your real reason for being so "suspicious" and leveling heavy accusations at a 16 year old boy?
When *I* read his post I thought it was rationale and well reasoned. Your response, on the other hand. Is worthless. The truth of the matter is that a 16 year old improved his time a “hard to believe” amount this year. If he went from 1:50 to 1:45 it would be hard to believe. To get to 1:42…. Truly it takes a special kind of hypocrisy to unquestioningly accept. Something to consider: the mile record for a 16yo is 3:55 by Cam Myers. His 1:42.27 is worth 3:45 according to the scoring tables. It’s not just an outlier. It’s incredibly suspicious. If he is on PEDs, it’s possible he doesn’t know. He seems genuine and likable. I hope he’s clean. I seriously doubt it.
I agree 100%. The recent progression to 1:42 at age 16 is so off-the-charts suspicious (beyond even Chepngetich’s) that I think the kid must not even be fully aware of what’s really going on. I’ll give this a 15% chance of being a clean performance, and that’s being generous because I’m also biased toward the possibility of an American kid achieving the impossible. More than likely, that’s exactly what it is. Impossible.
The thing is it’s an absolutely outlandish performance even if he’s on all the drugs in the world.
So this kid is dirty, but Hoppel, Brazier, Hoey, Wanyonyi, Arop are clean? No way. If he’s doping then they definitely are. And if that’s the case then honestly who cares?
Either way, this is simply the most ridiculous performance I’ve ever seen.
If the sport is dirty, then it’s dirty and we have to live with it. There’s also a chance that bicarbonate is having a bigger effect than people realize.
The thing is it’s an absolutely outlandish performance even if he’s on all the drugs in the world.
So this kid is dirty, but Hoppel, Brazier, Hoey, Wanyonyi, Arop are clean? No way. If he’s doping then they definitely are. And if that’s the case then honestly who cares?
Either way, this is simply the most ridiculous performance I’ve ever seen.
If the sport is dirty, then it’s dirty and we have to live with it. There’s also a chance that bicarbonate is having a bigger effect than people realize.
You’re comparing grown men that have been training like professionals for years (even wanyonyi) to a 16 yo? FFS the people on this board… his performance improvement would be hard to believe if it was from age 19 to 20. From age 15 to 16 it is *impossible* to believe, especially considering that the time would have been the AR last year.
People shouldn’t be quite as surprised as they are. The kid ran 1:47.58 in the 9th grade. This is modern day Jim Ryun stuff squared. I hope he continues to improve.
People shouldn’t be quite as surprised as they are. The kid ran 1:47.58 in the 9th grade. This is modern day Jim Ryun stuff squared. I hope he continues to improve.
True. Maybe we’re finally seeing what a Jim Ryun type talent could do in the modern era with super shoes, better training, nutrition, and pacing. Ryun (I think) was running in cinder tracks, no pace lights or pacers. Adjusting his performances for all those factors seems like what we might be seeing with Cooper as one of these rare once in a generation athletes. Time will tell though. It will be exciting to follow his future.
A response from the perspective of someone who does not understand poverty.
So American athletes don't try as hard because they don't live in poverty? Is that the part of training their coaches leave out - hardship? How is it that some of the world's greatest sportsmen are multi-millionaires? Where's the incentive to give of their best?
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The thing is it’s an absolutely outlandish performance even if he’s on all the drugs in the world.
So this kid is dirty, but Hoppel, Brazier, Hoey, Wanyonyi, Arop are clean? No way. If he’s doping then they definitely are. And if that’s the case then honestly who cares?
Either way, this is simply the most ridiculous performance I’ve ever seen.
If the sport is dirty, then it’s dirty and we have to live with it. There’s also a chance that bicarbonate is having a bigger effect than people realize.
You’re comparing grown men that have been training like professionals for years (even wanyonyi) to a 16 yo? FFS the people on this board… his performance improvement would be hard to believe if it was from age 19 to 20. From age 15 to 16 it is *impossible* to believe, especially considering that the time would have been the AR last year.
The thing is it’s an absolutely outlandish performance even if he’s on all the drugs in the world.
Exactly. That's what everybody seems to be missing. There's no way that Cooper has access to some special, unknown drug that is not circulating elsewhere. There's also no way that if a drug exists that can enhance performance and that can often escape detection that many, many 800m hopefuls aren't taking it.
So, either way Cooper is on a level playing field. Either he's level with the clean athletes because he's clean or he's level with the non-clean athletes because he's taking similar enhancements to them.
Yet nobody remotely is close to his performance at this age.
Let's take this further. In 2001, the 5th best HS 800 meter runner ran 1:49.6 and the 10th best was 1:51.1. In 2025, the 5th best HS 800 meter runner ran 1:47.6 and the 10th best was 1:48.5. That makes for an improvement of 2 seconds (using the 5th place runner) or 2.5 seconds (using the 10th best runner) since 2001.
Let's assume that the leading HS runners were all clean in 2001 and that they are all not clean today, with every second of that improvement owing not to better shoes or better tracks or better training or the need to be faster due to the increased level of competition, but solely instead from drugs. That's an extreme viewpoint ... but even then, that makes Cooper a 1:44x runner at age 16, which is also unprecedented.
So, ultimately I don't think it's accurate to make his success a pharmaceuticals story.
A response from the perspective of someone who does not understand poverty.
So American athletes don't try as hard because they don't live in poverty? Is that the part of training their coaches leave out - hardship? How is it that some of the world's greatest sportsmen are multi-millionaires? Where's the incentive to give of their best?
No clue what you’re talking about anymore. The economic incentives for the rural poor in developing countries is different than athletes in the US. It has nothing to do with trying hard. Athletes can work equally as hard but be incentivized by different things. Maybe it is easier to picture an athlete in the US wanting to go to the NBA or NFL. Do you think there is an incentive to cheat (by taking PEDs) to just win championships or to make millions?
You are correct that there are athletes that grow up wealthy and go on to become successful. Please feel free to inform me of any East African track athletes that were already wealthy before entering the sport. I’ll wait.
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Fixed grammar
Cooper is not doping or taking steroids. It's natural speed. Thousands more kids are running in high school and college than in the 1980s and 1990s and records are being broken all over the place. Male and Female. All these kids are running due to the health clubs opening up. The parents get them involved at the health clubs at a young age. Not many kids ran when Kennedy and Williams ran. Nobody really wanted to run. I remember when I ran in the 80s. We only had 6 distance guys on the cross country team. The school had over 2 thousand students. More kids could have ran. Nobody wanted to. Kids are also more stressed out these days and their parents are too. That's why more people are working out. The 80's were so mello. Nobody cared to run.
Cooper is not doping or taking steroids. It's natural speed. Thousands more kids are running in high school and college than in the 1980s and 1990s and records are being broken all over the place. Male and Female. All these kids are running due to the health clubs opening up. The parents get them involved at the health clubs at a young age. Not many kids ran when Kennedy and Williams ran. Nobody really wanted to run. I remember when I ran in the 80s. We only had 6 distance guys on the cross country team. The school had over 2 thousand students. More kids could have ran. Nobody wanted to. Kids are also more stressed out these days and their parents are too. That's why more people are working out. The 80's were so mello. Nobody cared to run.
Hahahahahahahahahaha. That is a good one. Ever heard of Jim Ryun? Health clubs are not the reason.
You claim that nobody cared to run in the 1980s. I suppose you have never heard of Paul Gompers, for example. Or a fellow named Brad Hudson. They ran more mileage than most elites today. They might not have been the most talented but they were good runners.
So American athletes don't try as hard because they don't live in poverty? Is that the part of training their coaches leave out - hardship? How is it that some of the world's greatest sportsmen are multi-millionaires? Where's the incentive to give of their best?
No clue what you’re talking about anymore. The economic incentives for the rural poor in developing countries is different than athletes in the US. It has nothing to do with trying hard. Athletes can work equally as hard but be incentivized by different things. Maybe it is easier to picture an athlete in the US wanting to go to the NBA or NFL. Do you think there is an incentive to cheat (by taking PEDs) to just win championships or to make millions?
You are correct that there are athletes that grow up wealthy and go on to become successful. Please feel free to inform me of any East African track athletes that were already wealthy before entering the sport. I’ll wait.
E Africans are succeeding in running because they are doping. The unceasing violations have long proved that. Their culture has enabled that. But you fail to understand any kind of achievement let alone sports if you think it is dictated by money. If you look at the arts and literature, where many of the greatest remained impoverished, you can see that, and sports are the same. Amateurs have been as dedicated as professionals - Nurmi, Zatopek, Elliott etc - and then we have seen the world's highest paid professionals also rising to the top - Tiger Woods, Federer, Ronaldo and so on. Some achievements offer enormous financial rewards but ultimately that isn't what drives the best. It is simply to be the best. But some look for shortcuts.
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Cooper is not doping or taking steroids. It's natural speed. Thousands more kids are running in high school and college than in the 1980s and 1990s and records are being broken all over the place. Male and Female. All these kids are running due to the health clubs opening up. The parents get them involved at the health clubs at a young age. Not many kids ran when Kennedy and Williams ran. Nobody really wanted to run. I remember when I ran in the 80s. We only had 6 distance guys on the cross country team. The school had over 2 thousand students. More kids could have ran. Nobody wanted to. Kids are also more stressed out these days and their parents are too. That's why more people are working out. The 80's were so mello. Nobody cared to run.
Produce the figures that show more youngsters are involved in the sport today than they were in the '80s. This, in a sport that has shown a declining public interest compared with other major sports since that time.