If I found out my opponent in beer league softball was on TRT, I can tell you I wouldn’t care. Few people would.
Do you want to drug test the over-60 men’s church softball league? Probably not. Why? Because it just isn’t worth the time and money. You don’t care that much. Neither does anyone else.
You get my point - there is a level of competition that we don’t drug test, or even rigidly enforce the rules. Because it doesn’t matter, and normal people don’t care.
Look, someday I’ll almost certainly get on TRT. It’s available, so why not? I won’t do it to go up a few places at whatever old folks competition, to win the zero prizes they offer. I’ll do it to feel better, look better, and continue to be active as I age. I don’t want to have to give up all organized competition for life, including beer league softball. It just seems a little legalistic to me.
If I were getting into organized mixed martial arts, I would embrace drug testing at any age and at every level of competition, then TRT use could put people in actual danger,. But 70 year olds jogging a 5k is not that important.
“Because it doesn’t matter, and normal people don’t care.”
“I don’t want to have to…”
Ahh, the old aszhole narcissist rhetoric rears its ugly head.
Unilaterally deciding for everyone what “matters”.
Then marginalizing those who don’t agree into a deviant psychopathology.
Finally, the exaltation of the personal psychology over the collective, to its detriment.
So classic.
What narcissists like this don’t understand is that they derive no net benefit from their actions. We are social creatures, no man is an island. Even if one lacks empathy and purports to not care about what others think, they are still subject to what others do, which often depends on what those others say to each other.
And what others do affects the narcissist, whether they acknowledge the fact or not.
How about NO masters track, you dumb F? Participation is dying among the young, and an increasing number of guys like me don’t care to play a role in a circus. The leftover boomers are fewer in number every day.
The death of masters track is what you are helping to achieve, and masters track is something you psychologically need, because you are a USER.
Rather than time-trialling by yourself, you need the company of others—either for structure, acknowledgment, drafting, measurement, or dynamics—in order to achieve psychological satisfaction.
By displaying such a need, you evidence that you are mentally completely WEAK. If you were very strong, you wouldn’t be dissatisfied with your natural performance, and you wouldn’t use…and if you were only somewhat strong, you would use, and TT by yourself or with similarly-minded friends.
This logic will NEVER have any effect on you, because your very nature doesn’t permit it. I write this not for you, but as a contribution to the broader understanding of your condition. What merit, if any, broader society assigns to my views will be a matter of community standards—but I believe it important to contribute to the marketplace of ideas.
On a personal level, I think that people with these traits are sometimes aggravating, sometimes pathetic, but always aszholes.
😁
Sprintgeezer, I’m not going to even respond beyond this sentence. Good day to you and God bless.
“The best thing I got this weekend was a notification from Google Scholar that I had reached 7,500 citations in published articles and books, and have 4 classics (over 500 citations each).”
It makes me wonder how many of his published articles and books he cheated on…
When, go I like going hard - I tend to need the HR monitor to slow me down - but personally I need the target of a competition to motivate me. I've been racing for more than 50 years, and don't race more than three or four times a year, but like the structure of training with a specific competition and target in mind.
All that amounts to is that you do not like going hard, you "like going hard when competing".
The two are different. In the first case, going hard is its own motivation, and its own reward--which aren't enough for you, therefore you require whatever extrinsic motivation is provided to you by competition against others.
otoh if you are not competing "against" others, but instead against yourself while being "in a race WITH others", that might be different--but then you should ask yourself why you need to be with others to be motivated.
Whatever the specific reason, it is ultimately because you are a social being, and benefit from some experiential quality that arises from being around others.
In one sense, that is a form of weakness, relative to someone who can perform at the same level regardless of whether there are others performing or not. otoh if you require others around to perform your best, then you are using them for that purpose, if you choose to compete among them.
Bottom line is that anybody who enters a race either (depending on one's attitude) against or among others, in effect USES those others to achieve some perceived benefit. Same applies if you are the only competitor in a particular race, at a meet at which there are officials, support, and other competitors in other events.
In a non-aszhole, that is understood, and comes with an attendant feeling and understanding of responsibility, or duty, to those others. The failure to either perceive, or to adequately discharge this duty/responsibility, is how dopers land in the aszhole category.
In my world, that is the very definition of an aszhole.
I am assuming you're clean, and of course there is then nothing whatsoever wrong with competing in masters--in fact, it is laudable in many ways...but, similarly, it is not without flaws, such as contributing to a system which, although it officially bans cheating, nevertheless provides a venue for that cheating to occur, pays at best lip service to maintaining a clean competition, and often times rewards the very activity it claims to prohibit.
In short, masters isn't even trying, and relies on the honor of its participants to define its brand. In my world, that collective level of honor doesn't rise to a high enough level to make me want to take part. For me, it would be a step down--a step I don't need to take, because for me going hard is intrinsic, its own motivation and reward.
Maintaining the highest level of honor is why I will still run with and against kids who I know are clean--and now, they're beating me in the sprints.
And it feels great to lose to them.
Man! With no disrespect you have this way wrong.
Yes I'm clean, other than beer and Ibruprofen.
You are massively wrong about when I go hard. I've done sessions of 6x1000m when I've been dry heaving with one to go and then run that one the fastest of the lot. I'd very frequently reach max HR on a rep. It's taken me decades to learn to not to do every track session with that intensity. My inclination is always to go hard, but I prefer to do that within the context of a structure pointing to a goal.
When I race, I race all out, whether I'm racing my own age group 65+ or trying to outkick someone 40 years younger.
It's not as you say, that I am "a social being.." I haven't been a member of a club in 20 years. I do all my training alone, and I've traveled thousands of miles to a championship by myself, where I've known no one at the meet.
My motivation is that I love to compete, and I get my (extrinsic) motivation from setting a target in a competition. For me, there is satisfaction, for example of beating a road-race age record on the day, as opposed going out and running a time-trial, and saying to myself "I could have beaten that.."
I don't doubt that there are some cheats in masters track, but I suspect they are few and far between. I was no star when I was young, and if there were hoards of cheats out there I wouldn't have had the success, albeit modest, I've had (including making top 20 world -rankings).
I guarantee there are more cheats micro-dosing and beating the testers at the highest-level in athletics, so you could say the Olympics/World Championship/Diamond League/World Marathon Majors provide a far bigger venue for "cheating to occur" than does Masters Track and Field.
As far as I can tell, we both like to go hard and we both like to compete. The only difference is that I sometimes target something like USATF Masters, an age group course record, or World Senior Games, and you prefer just to compete in open company (as of course are many of my road races).
Chris Running is a successful serial entrepreneur, having founded or co-founded nine companies since 1999.Prior to Chris’ entrepreneurial ventures, he held s...
Guys like him are part of why I don’t run masters.
Loser.
So, the guy who calls a friends daughter immature…. for her refusal to participate in the real world due to viewing it as unfair, now walks away from master events due to it being unfair. Strikes me as - life is unfair but that’s ok, until it impacts your life then it’s time to take your toys and go home.
USADA announced today that Robert Qualls, of Reno, Nev., an athlete in the sport of track and field, has accepted a three-year period of ineligibility for an anti-doping rule violation after testing positive for multiple prohibited substances.
Qualls, 72, tested positive for amphetamine and 19-norandrosterone (19-NA), a metabolite of nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) and other 19-norsteroids as the result of a urine sample collected at the USA Track & Field Masters 5km Championships on February 24, 2024. Additionally, Qualls’s urine sample was analyzed using a specialized test known as Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry (IRMS), that unequivocally differentiates between anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) naturally produced by the body and AAS of synthetic origin. The IRMS analysis was consistent with the exogenous origin of testosterone and/or its metabolites in Qualls’s sample. USADA was contracted by event organizers to conduct testing and results management for the event and collected Qualls’s sample in accordance with the WADA International Standard for Testing.
Masters running is fine if you think it is personally worthwhile but no matter the age or how you spin it a slow 5k will always be a slow 5k. Age grading is a joke. Doping to run a sub 20 minute 5k is just pitiful. Boomers need to stop being boomers for a minute.
All that amounts to is that you do not like going hard, you "like going hard when competing".
The two are different. In the first case, going hard is its own motivation, and its own reward--which aren't enough for you, therefore you require whatever extrinsic motivation is provided to you by competition against others.
otoh if you are not competing "against" others, but instead against yourself while being "in a race WITH others", that might be different--but then you should ask yourself why you need to be with others to be motivated.
Whatever the specific reason, it is ultimately because you are a social being, and benefit from some experiential quality that arises from being around others.
In one sense, that is a form of weakness, relative to someone who can perform at the same level regardless of whether there are others performing or not. otoh if you require others around to perform your best, then you are using them for that purpose, if you choose to compete among them.
Bottom line is that anybody who enters a race either (depending on one's attitude) against or among others, in effect USES those others to achieve some perceived benefit. Same applies if you are the only competitor in a particular race, at a meet at which there are officials, support, and other competitors in other events.
In a non-aszhole, that is understood, and comes with an attendant feeling and understanding of responsibility, or duty, to those others. The failure to either perceive, or to adequately discharge this duty/responsibility, is how dopers land in the aszhole category.
In my world, that is the very definition of an aszhole.
I am assuming you're clean, and of course there is then nothing whatsoever wrong with competing in masters--in fact, it is laudable in many ways...but, similarly, it is not without flaws, such as contributing to a system which, although it officially bans cheating, nevertheless provides a venue for that cheating to occur, pays at best lip service to maintaining a clean competition, and often times rewards the very activity it claims to prohibit.
In short, masters isn't even trying, and relies on the honor of its participants to define its brand. In my world, that collective level of honor doesn't rise to a high enough level to make me want to take part. For me, it would be a step down--a step I don't need to take, because for me going hard is intrinsic, its own motivation and reward.
Maintaining the highest level of honor is why I will still run with and against kids who I know are clean--and now, they're beating me in the sprints.
And it feels great to lose to them.
Man! With no disrespect you have this way wrong.
Yes I'm clean, other than beer and Ibruprofen.
You are massively wrong about when I go hard. I've done sessions of 6x1000m when I've been dry heaving with one to go and then run that one the fastest of the lot. I'd very frequently reach max HR on a rep. It's taken me decades to learn to not to do every track session with that intensity. My inclination is always to go hard, but I prefer to do that within the context of a structure pointing to a goal.
When I race, I race all out, whether I'm racing my own age group 65+ or trying to outkick someone 40 years younger.
It's not as you say, that I am "a social being.." I haven't been a member of a club in 20 years. I do all my training alone, and I've traveled thousands of miles to a championship by myself, where I've known no one at the meet.
My motivation is that I love to compete, and I get my (extrinsic) motivation from setting a target in a competition. For me, there is satisfaction, for example of beating a road-race age record on the day, as opposed going out and running a time-trial, and saying to myself "I could have beaten that.."
I don't doubt that there are some cheats in masters track, but I suspect they are few and far between. I was no star when I was young, and if there were hoards of cheats out there I wouldn't have had the success, albeit modest, I've had (including making top 20 world -rankings).
I guarantee there are more cheats micro-dosing and beating the testers at the highest-level in athletics, so you could say the Olympics/World Championship/Diamond League/World Marathon Majors provide a far bigger venue for "cheating to occur" than does Masters Track and Field.
As far as I can tell, we both like to go hard and we both like to compete. The only difference is that I sometimes target something like USATF Masters, an age group course record, or World Senior Games, and you prefer just to compete in open company (as of course are many of my road races).
“Compete”
”In a competition”
Maybe read my post again (I realize it isn’t tight, lol you can hardly be blamed for either not understanding its meaning, or not having read it all). We are not talking at odds.
Guys like him are part of why I don’t run masters.
Loser.
So, the guy who calls a friends daughter immature…. for her refusal to participate in the real world due to viewing it as unfair, now walks away from master events due to it being unfair. Strikes me as - life is unfair but that’s ok, until it impacts your life then it’s time to take your toys and go home.
Wrong.
I didn’t walk away because I thought it unfair, I walked away because it was too dishonorable, token, equivocal, and pathetic to spend my time on, and didn’t meet any psycho-social need or want of mine that I don’t get satisfied elsewhere.
As always, YMMV.
btw, that kid, having now graduated at 85k/yr paid for has, now that that gravy train has ended, moved in with her younger sister (in college in CA) because she is still funded with rent, etc. Total leech.
Right now she is just hanging out on the beach doing nothing, while her sugar-mama grandmother struggles in nearby AZ post-surgically after removal of bad infections following a botched pacemaker implantation.
Her dad is there providing care, but he needs help, and has asked. She refused because he hasn’t yet fixed her car to her satisfaction, and she doesn’t want to travel too much with her dogs because it is too traumatic for them, even though the dogs, yes, have full health insurance, and could attend therapy.
She’s literally hoping her grandmother dies. Happily, her recovery is proceeding well, and the kid will need to mark time for at least another decade.
So, the guy who calls a friends daughter immature…. for her refusal to participate in the real world due to viewing it as unfair, now walks away from master events due to it being unfair. Strikes me as - life is unfair but that’s ok, until it impacts your life then it’s time to take your toys and go home.
Wrong.
I didn’t walk away because I thought it unfair, I walked away because it was too dishonorable, token, equivocal, and pathetic to spend my time on, and didn’t meet any psycho-social need or want of mine that I don’t get satisfied elsewhere.
As always, YMMV.
btw, that kid, having now graduated at 85k/yr paid for has, now that that gravy train has ended, moved in with her younger sister (in college in CA) because she is still funded with rent, etc. Total leech.
Right now she is just hanging out on the beach doing nothing, while her sugar-mama grandmother struggles in nearby AZ post-surgically after removal of bad infections following a botched pacemaker implantation.
Her dad is there providing care, but he needs help, and has asked. She refused because he hasn’t yet fixed her car to her satisfaction, and she doesn’t want to travel too much with her dogs because it is too traumatic for them, even though the dogs, yes, have full health insurance, and could attend therapy.
She’s literally hoping her grandmother dies. Happily, her recovery is proceeding well, and the kid will need to mark time for at least another decade.
Another aszhole.
These comments are in reference to the 9 month old post OK boomer by Sprintgeezer.
I have up voted nearly all your comments here, however when you called Mikeh 33 a dumb f along with the frequent use of Aszhole directed at people you disagree with, I decided to stop giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your response to me validates my decision.
I made it perfectly clear that I was referring to your walking away from masters (track) events — not this guys daughter, who I agree was undeserving of you generosity.
Your twisting of my short straightforward comment shows you to be as dishonest as any doped athlete.
You are massively wrong about when I go hard. I've done sessions of 6x1000m when I've been dry heaving with one to go and then run that one the fastest of the lot. I'd very frequently reach max HR on a rep. It's taken me decades to learn to not to do every track session with that intensity. My inclination is always to go hard, but I prefer to do that within the context of a structure pointing to a goal.
When I race, I race all out, whether I'm racing my own age group 65+ or trying to outkick someone 40 years younger.
It's not as you say, that I am "a social being.." I haven't been a member of a club in 20 years. I do all my training alone, and I've traveled thousands of miles to a championship by myself, where I've known no one at the meet.
My motivation is that I love to compete, and I get my (extrinsic) motivation from setting a target in a competition. For me, there is satisfaction, for example of beating a road-race age record on the day, as opposed going out and running a time-trial, and saying to myself "I could have beaten that.."
I don't doubt that there are some cheats in masters track, but I suspect they are few and far between. I was no star when I was young, and if there were hoards of cheats out there I wouldn't have had the success, albeit modest, I've had (including making top 20 world -rankings).
I guarantee there are more cheats micro-dosing and beating the testers at the highest-level in athletics, so you could say the Olympics/World Championship/Diamond League/World Marathon Majors provide a far bigger venue for "cheating to occur" than does Masters Track and Field.
As far as I can tell, we both like to go hard and we both like to compete. The only difference is that I sometimes target something like USATF Masters, an age group course record, or World Senior Games, and you prefer just to compete in open company (as of course are many of my road races).
“Compete”
”In a competition”
Maybe read my post again (I realize it isn’t tight, lol you can hardly be blamed for either not understanding its meaning, or not having read it all). We are not talking at odds.
I did read it, although I may have focused on some aspects that I extracted out of context, principally whether I liked to go hard other than in races (I do) and whether there was a socially aspect to me going to races (there isn't).
I'd actually say being more accurate and more honest, it is a compulsion to "go hard" whether it's running, or now I'm cross-training on an Elliptical. I think for much of the time that compulsion or "liking" going hard was actually detrimental to my progress (and at times to my health).
Ultimately, I've found that the approach was giving me disappointing results - giving a short peak followed by a precipitous decline in performance. With that in mind, I switched to EIM (Easy Interval Method) for the last major meet I targeted (World Senior Games). So, you would be correct to say that I've prioritized a competitive outcome over "going hard" every session (probably not that healthy at 67). Ultimately it's just not sustainable, to "go hard" - which was for me all out - in two or three track sessions a week.
There is an aspect that I do enjoy in competition and that applies to middle and longer distance more that sprinting (although I recognize there is mental game to that too), in that there is a tactical and pacing skill element. To give an example: a couple of years ago in a significant masters meet, I was running against the person in my age group who had run the fastest mile in the US last year, and was in good form. He opened up quite a gap on me I gradually wore him down, and on this occasion was able to outkick him, mostly because I'd paced it better, in a time that bettered my target (all very friendly - he encouraged me to enter the meet and train for it, and we posted our sessions on the "oldies" section of this message board). I could have likely soloed just as fast on a decent track by myself (given all my training is solo), but to me - and my rival - it wouldn't have been half as much fun. And it still would have been a fun process and race had I lost.
Anyway, it seems that the our principal difference is that we both like race, but you prefer open competition as you perceive it as cleaner and prioritize it less, where I run open road races, but at times focus on Masters events.
Well, a 72 year old guy thought it so important to win one of those 70 year old age group awards, representing the best of the wrecked remnants of a different running age that he pathetically took PED’s and to top it off he was a college professor!!!!
I hope they at least name one of the 7 EV charging stations after him anyway considering he’s one of those ecology types.
I figured it out since we are talking about the guy in this thread. Pacific Association. I got a few names that need to be tested. I'm actually surprised some signed up for Masters Nationals when they have drug testing there. I expect some DNS.
Pretty sure we are thinking of the same people. I was surprised to see them on the start list too.
Currently waiting to see which drug cheats actually declare their intent to compete and which ones scratch because of the drug testing.
Pretty sure we are thinking of the same people. I was surprised to see them on the start list too.
Currently waiting to see which drug cheats actually declare their intent to compete and which ones scratch because of the drug testing.
So far no one has withdrawn that I can tell. The Pacific Association did put a link to the Qualls USADA Press Release on their site. Sure this will be talked about at the big meet. My guess is they test all age group medalists. Given the sparsity of the the field in some age groups, could well lead to 25 minute 5k people being tested.
I've thought more about this and I now think that they should create two divisions at all the big national ones. The tested division and the non-tested division. Peer pressure would make the latter more important without excluding people with legitimate medical needs from competition and community.
If I recall 2003 Masters Eddy Hellebuyck ran 2:17 @ Boston on Monday.
Six days later won masters Carlsbad 5k 14:38
Jeez I wonder why he got finally got busted
Ugh, I was in my early 20s at the time facing this guy almost once a month at races. It was infuriating. I will say he was always nice. It just seemed so crazy how fast and sturdy he was for a guy in his 40s.
I’m in my 40s now and rarely race, but still train a decent amount. I’ve often thought about what I’d do if something like TRT could make me feel better on runs and in the gym. For lifestyle and overall health reasons, not racing/competitive performance.
I couldn’t take the stuff and compete. I may do it one day to keep active or maintain (love life), but I would retire from racing.
Some of you are acting like Masters running doesn’t matter, but it does to those who do it. Cheaters are abhorrent no matter what.
All racing is age group racing. Middle schoolers compete against middle schoolers, college age against college age, masters vs. masters, etc. If you're racing and cheating, the age group doesn't matter. Cheating is cheating.
Currently waiting to see which drug cheats actually declare their intent to compete and which ones scratch because of the drug testing.
So far no one has withdrawn that I can tell. The Pacific Association did put a link to the Qualls USADA Press Release on their site. Sure this will be talked about at the big meet. My guess is they test all age group medalists. Given the sparsity of the the field in some age groups, could well lead to 25 minute 5k people being tested.
I've thought more about this and I now think that they should create two divisions at all the big national ones. The tested division and the non-tested division. Peer pressure would make the latter more important without excluding people with legitimate medical needs from competition and community.
If anyone has any doubts on who’s cheating, those that don’t show for the 5K tomorrow should answer that question on a few of them.
If I recall 2003 Masters Eddy Hellebuyck ran 2:17 @ Boston on Monday.
Six days later won masters Carlsbad 5k 14:38
Jeez I wonder why he got finally got busted
Ugh, I was in my early 20s at the time facing this guy almost once a month at races. It was infuriating. I will say he was always nice. It just seemed so crazy how fast and sturdy he was for a guy in his 40s.
I’m in my 40s now and rarely race, but still train a decent amount. I’ve often thought about what I’d do if something like TRT could make me feel better on runs and in the gym. For lifestyle and overall health reasons, not racing/competitive performance.
I couldn’t take the stuff and compete. I may do it one day to keep active or maintain (love life), but I would retire from racing.
Some of you are acting like Masters running doesn’t matter, but it does to those who do it. Cheaters are abhorrent no matter what.
TRT is a Billion dollar industry globally that's growing fast:
Allied Market Research published a report, titled, "Testosterone Replacement Therapy Market by Product Type (Injectables, Topical, and Other), Active Ingredient (Testosterone Cypionate, Testosterone, Testosterone Enanthate, T...
Low-T centers are cropping up all over the U.S. One of the local sports talk radio shows that I listen to regularly advertises a popular low-T center in town. A retired NFL HOF player does the promo (they're running a special right now - sign up after your initial consultation & get the first month's treatment free. Lol).
And there are now many babyboomer fitness influencers with YouTube channels on TRT. They make no bones about their TRT use showing off their improvement in lean muscle mass, strength & general wellbeing.
With the popularity with TRT, I would suspect a good number of masters athletes are using it - more than a lot of people realize. They'll keep it quiet about it of course & chalk off any improvement to better nutrition, better sleep, Yoga, switching to decaf, etc. Lol.
Even babyboomer race walkers are using androgens. This dude got popped a couple years ago at a National indoor championship!
Sixty-year-old racewalker Scott McPherson has been handed a four-year ban by the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) after failing a test for ana...
Young blood transfusion refers to transfusing blood specifically from a young person into an older one with the intention of creating a health benefit. The efficacy and safety of young blood transfusions for anti-aging purpos...
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