You seem to have missed the point RunRagged was trying to make. How many of those people started transitioning as a child?
Her point was that early medical transition did not stop trans women from becoming taller than cis women. And she used ONE example to "prove" her point.
But none of these matters to you.
A paper published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism last year gives plenty more examples.
The paper - "Transgender Girls Grow Tall: Adult Height Is Unaffected by GnRH Analogue and Estradiol Treatment" - is about a large group of males who each "started transitioning as a child" via early administration and continual use of GnRHa drugs aka "puberty blockers" along with hefty, continual use of estrogen.
Despite the fact that these medical interventions left these young males chemically castrated and permanently sterile, they all grew to adult heights normal for the adult male population and consistent with the predicted adult heights they as individuals would have reached if no medical attempts had been made to alter their development.
Going by the medical records and clinical measurements of 161 males in the Netherlands who "started medically transitioning" in childhood, the clinicians who wrote this paper came to the conclusion that
the treatment does not affect adult height
Overall, regular treatment seems to have little effect on adult height.
The finding that transgender girls, who have XY chromosomes and are treated with estradiol, reach an adult height close to the population mean for males suggests a minor role for sex hormones. This is in line with findings from studies in individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) or XY complete gonadal dysgenesis in whom adult height was closer to male target height or average height in the male population (40, 41). This supports the idea that genetic factors, rather than sex hormones, are important in the regulation of growth (41, 42).
Since it turns out that the use of "puberty blockers" and Big Pharma estrogen doesn't stop male genetics, the "gender medicine" clinicians ghouls who wrote this paper say that surgical means to shorten the leg bones of male "early transitioners" are another possible medical intevention to try on these poor kids:
Some transgender girls wish to reduce their growth in order to reach an adult height within the normal female range. Surgical treatment, that is, an epiphysiodesis, can be used to limit growth (8, 9).
Your study also says whether a high dose of estrogen could reduce the height growth is still unknown.
Pre-pubescent world records are meaningless because most kids are not training seriously at that age.
When you're arguing that *not going through* male puberty substantially evens the playing field, it would be really advantageous to your point if girls had approx 50% of youth world records, as it would show that they at least started even. Like, really advantageous to your point. So yeah, you should totally tell everyone about all the youth world records in track and field held by girls. It would certainly help convince me.
You're right, clogging up the thread with random examples doesn't matter to me because, in my opinion, early medical transition should:
a) be illegal and those responsible for it should be imprisoned.
b) not exempt a male from having to compete in the correct sex category.
This I agree with. Someone born male but identifying as female is a female, full stop no exceptions. That means they shouldn't have to do anything medical, just declare their preferred gender and you are that gender.
Nothing else matters.
Call yourself what you want I suppose (if gender is to be self-determined), but that doesn't mean you can compete in a division that is based on sex.
Put it this way... do you get your prostate checked, or do you buy tampons?
You're right, clogging up the thread with random examples doesn't matter to me because, in my opinion, early medical transition should:
a) be illegal and those responsible for it should be imprisoned.
b) not exempt a male from having to compete in the correct sex category.
This I agree with. Someone born male but identifying as female is a female, full stop no exceptions. That means they shouldn't have to do anything medical, just declare their preferred gender and you are that gender.
Nothing else matters.
They aren't female. They have never been female. They have no basis from which to identify as a female . They don't know what it means to be female. They will never know what it means to be female.
They can take hormones, they can get surgery, they can live everyday as if they are female. However, they will never be female. It's a hard truth, that many of them never get over. Instead of helping them deal with their issue, you'll ask everyone else to suspend reality, you'll call everyone else a bigot, you'll say everyone else has the issue. Your "advocacy" is more harmful than helpful in the long run.
Pre-pubescent world records are meaningless because most kids are not training seriously at that age.
When you're arguing that *not going through* male puberty substantially evens the playing field, it would be really advantageous to your point if girls had approx 50% of youth world records, as it would show that they at least started even. Like, really advantageous to your point. So yeah, you should totally tell everyone about all the youth world records in track and field held by girls. It would certainly help convince me.
If you think your evidence is so good, why don't you present it to World Athletics? Actually, they already know it and determined it was irrelevant.
This I agree with. Someone born male but identifying as female is a female, full stop no exceptions. That means they shouldn't have to do anything medical, just declare their preferred gender and you are that gender.
Nothing else matters.
Call yourself what you want I suppose (if gender is to be self-determined), but that doesn't mean you can compete in a division that is based on sex.
Put it this way... do you get your prostate checked, or do you buy tampons?
This determines what division you compete in.
Disagree. Your chosen gender should dictate how you live your life. How you dress, which bathroom you use, which teams you participate on. All of these are gender differences, not sex differences. Outside of reproduction and medial health all of these other societal inventions aren't sex-determined, they are gender determined.
If Lebron James decides today he wants to identify as female she should be able to go join the WNBA, no questions asked, assuming she is good enough for a team.
If some WNBA player wants to identify as male he should be able to go join the NBA, no questions asked, assuming he is good enough for a team.
I think this goes both ways equally, M -> F and F -> M. Inclusion is more important than anything else.
Call yourself what you want I suppose (if gender is to be self-determined), but that doesn't mean you can compete in a division that is based on sex.
Put it this way... do you get your prostate checked, or do you buy tampons?
This determines what division you compete in.
Disagree. Your chosen gender should dictate how you live your life. How you dress, which bathroom you use, which teams you participate on. All of these are gender differences, not sex differences. Outside of reproduction and medial health all of these other societal inventions aren't sex-determined, they are gender determined.
If Lebron James decides today he wants to identify as female she should be able to go join the WNBA, no questions asked, assuming she is good enough for a team.
If some WNBA player wants to identify as male he should be able to go join the NBA, no questions asked, assuming he is good enough for a team.
I think this goes both ways equally, M -> F and F -> M. Inclusion is more important than anything else.
Your examples ask everyone else to change they way they live their lives for the sake of one person.
That isn't fair treatment. That is special treatment.
You seem confused. Males are not allowed to compete. They are females. They said so.
It’s sport, a recreational or professional activity but not a reproductive activity, so having a vagina and ovaries and all is not considered a requirement.
Are you saying gender and sex are the same thing? It sure sounds like it.
No, do you have reading comprehension issues? It sure sounds like it.
Disagree. Your chosen gender should dictate how you live your life. How you dress, which bathroom you use, which teams you participate on. All of these are gender differences, not sex differences. Outside of reproduction and medial health all of these other societal inventions aren't sex-determined, they are gender determined.
If Lebron James decides today he wants to identify as female she should be able to go join the WNBA, no questions asked, assuming she is good enough for a team.
If some WNBA player wants to identify as male he should be able to go join the NBA, no questions asked, assuming he is good enough for a team.
I think this goes both ways equally, M -> F and F -> M. Inclusion is more important than anything else.
Your examples ask everyone else to change they way they live their lives for the sake of one person.
That isn't fair treatment. That is special treatment.
No one has to change the way they live their lives. Gender is a social construct. If someone changes their gender identity I don't have to do anything other than do my best to use the right pronouns.
Call yourself what you want I suppose (if gender is to be self-determined), but that doesn't mean you can compete in a division that is based on sex.
Put it this way... do you get your prostate checked, or do you buy tampons?
This determines what division you compete in.
Disagree. Your chosen gender should dictate how you live your life. How you dress, which bathroom you use, which teams you participate on. All of these are gender differences, not sex differences. Outside of reproduction and medial health all of these other societal inventions aren't sex-determined, they are gender determined.
If Lebron James decides today he wants to identify as female she should be able to go join the WNBA, no questions asked, assuming she is good enough for a team.
If some WNBA player wants to identify as male he should be able to go join the NBA, no questions asked, assuming he is good enough for a team.
I think this goes both ways equally, M -> F and F -> M. Inclusion is more important than anything else.
LeBron James has no interest in playing in the WNBA so referring to him in this thread is nonsense.
You seem to have missed the point RunRagged was trying to make. How many of those people started transitioning as a child?
Her point was that early medical transition did not stop trans women from becoming taller than cis women. And she used ONE example to "prove" her point.
But none of these matters to you.
A paper published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism last year gives plenty more examples.
The paper - "Transgender Girls Grow Tall: Adult Height Is Unaffected by GnRH Analogue and Estradiol Treatment" - is about a large group of males who each "started transitioning as a child" via early administration and continual use of GnRHa drugs aka "puberty blockers" along with hefty, continual use of estrogen.
Despite the fact that these medical interventions left these young males chemically castrated and permanently sterile, they all grew to adult heights normal for the adult male population and consistent with the predicted adult heights they as individuals would have reached if no medical attempts had been made to alter their development.
Going by the medical records and clinical measurements of 161 males in the Netherlands who "started medically transitioning" in childhood, the clinicians who wrote this paper came to the conclusion that
the treatment does not affect adult height
Overall, regular treatment seems to have little effect on adult height.
The finding that transgender girls, who have XY chromosomes and are treated with estradiol, reach an adult height close to the population mean for males suggests a minor role for sex hormones. This is in line with findings from studies in individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) or XY complete gonadal dysgenesis in whom adult height was closer to male target height or average height in the male population (40, 41). This supports the idea that genetic factors, rather than sex hormones, are important in the regulation of growth (41, 42).
Since it turns out that the use of "puberty blockers" and Big Pharma estrogen doesn't stop male genetics, the "gender medicine" clinicians ghouls who wrote this paper say that surgical means to shorten the leg bones of male "early transitioners" are another possible medical intevention to try on these poor kids:
Some transgender girls wish to reduce their growth in order to reach an adult height within the normal female range. Surgical treatment, that is, an epiphysiodesis, can be used to limit growth (8, 9).
I don’t see why transwomen being taller on average matters when the intra-sex variation in height is already more than the inter-sex difference in the averages.
There’s little reason to think height matters in running, but if there’s a sport where it matters enough, it better be segregated by height categories like several strength sports are by weight categories, otherwise it’s unclear by what quantifiable metric it’s unfair. Is there any sport that considers Dutch participation as unfair?
Your examples ask everyone else to change they way they live their lives for the sake of one person.
That isn't fair treatment. That is special treatment.
No one has to change the way they live their lives. Gender is a social construct. If someone changes their gender identity I don't have to do anything other than do my best to use the right pronouns.
They absolutely do have to change their lives!
Your examples not mine - Every other woman has to accept your penis in their restroom, whether they want to or not. Every woman in the WNBA has to compete against Lebron whether they want to or not. Every WNBA fan has to accept Lebron beating up on every woman in the WNBA whether they want to watch that or not.
Everyone involved in the Maine CC race had to accept a boy in the girls race whether they wanted to or not.
Everyone around the trans person has to change their lives to accommodate the trans person.
No one has to change the way they live their lives. Gender is a social construct. If someone changes their gender identity I don't have to do anything other than do my best to use the right pronouns.
They absolutely do have to change their lives!
Your examples not mine - Every other woman has to accept your penis in their restroom, whether they want to or not. Every woman in the WNBA has to compete against Lebron whether they want to or not. Every WNBA fan has to accept Lebron beating up on every woman in the WNBA whether they want to watch that or not.
Everyone involved in the Maine CC race had to accept a boy in the girls race whether they wanted to or not.
Everyone around the trans person has to change their lives to accommodate the trans person.
Do you really not see that?
You’re the second poster who believes LeBron James wants to play in the WNBA. He doesn’t.
Your examples not mine - Every other woman has to accept your penis in their restroom, whether they want to or not. Every woman in the WNBA has to compete against Lebron whether they want to or not. Every WNBA fan has to accept Lebron beating up on every woman in the WNBA whether they want to watch that or not.
Everyone involved in the Maine CC race had to accept a boy in the girls race whether they wanted to or not.
Everyone around the trans person has to change their lives to accommodate the trans person.
Do you really not see that?
You’re the second poster who believes LeBron James wants to play in the WNBA. He doesn’t.
It was a response to a hypothetical posed by someone else. Nobody believes LeBron wants to play in the WNBA
You seem to have missed the point RunRagged was trying to make. How many of those people started transitioning as a child?
Her point was that early medical transition did not stop trans women from becoming taller than cis women. And she used ONE example to "prove" her point.
But none of these matters to you.
You continually ignore the very real evidence that medical transition doesn't even the playing field no matter how early it is started.
Really? How come trans runners are not clearing up global medals then? Not a single one. Zero.
What evidence makes you think the current rules are unfair to cis women as opposed to being unfair to transwomen? Is there some study showing that prepubertally transitioned transwomen with T < 2.5 for at least two years outperform cis women with similar training, diet, age, and other relevant control variables? Nobody even on this transphobic site thinks the current rules give trans- or even intersex women any shot at winning.
So here is the latest news from Roanoke College in Virginia.
A member of the men's swim team transitioned over the summer, and requested to compete on the women's team. Members of the women's team were asked to vote on the decision and they reluctantly agreed. They called for NCAA to change the rule. (And of course, NCAA has already changed the rule.)
And “while the College’s leadership was reviewing NCAA and national sport policies on eligibility, the student withdrew her request before any decision had been made.”
The bottom line: the coaches and the athletic department should have reviewed the policy first before announcing this to the women's team. All the fiasco would have been avoided.
The captains of an elite Virginia college swim team say they feel cheated and abandoned at having to accept a transgender competitor who until recently had competed for the men’s team.
