10-12x400 @ 3k with 30s rest

There are studies showing that people can make bigger gains in VO2 max by doing a high volume of shorter intervals somewhere between a 2:1 to 1:1 work-rest ratio. So instead of doing 4x5 minutes with 3 minute recoveries, one might do 20x1 minute with 30-45 second recoveries. For an elite athlete these might as well be 400s.

I know this sounds ominously close to what JS prescribes, but I think he may be on to something. Of course, most of the test subjects are recreational cyclists with VO2 max numbers around 60, not elite runners around 80. The studies seem pretty definitive that the same volume of shorter intervals is far less taxing, meaning recovery is quicker and injury risk is lower. The question remains, do the shorter intervals work to improve lactate threshold and fractional utilization of VO2 max (and specific endurance) as well as longer repeats? Hard to say, and hard to study.

Lots of people do lots of 400 repeats at mile race pace, so I don't see why adding a few more reps and making it 3k pace is so intimidating. It is a hard session, to be sure, but it sounds easier than something like 5x1 mile at 5k pace or 6x800 at 3k pace, no matter how long the recovery is on that session.

12 to 16 x400m @ 3k pace with 30 secs rest completely destroyed me in the past. I would never perform to expectations after that intensity of workout.

In my prime when I diluted down my training to something like 12 x 400 @ 3k to 5k pace with 200m jog in around 75 secs, or 8 x 400m at about mile (on a good day) to 3k pace with 2 min rest I made better progress (racing mid to low 8 for 3k). 12 x 400m @ 65 to 66 secs with 30 secs rest would have completely killed me. I guess each runner is different in the intensity that they can handle in training.

High altitude doesn`t effect so much when the runner are used to it and just running short intervals ( maybe 1 sec diff or nothing at all as I see with my African runners)

When it comes to the workouts you show I categorize them into the category " guessing training", far from world class coaching with perfect individual control.

could not do hard workouts wrote:

12 to 16 x400m @ 3k pace with 30 secs rest completely destroyed me in the past. I would never perform to expectations after that intensity of workout.

In my prime when I diluted down my training to something like 12 x 400 @ 3k to 5k pace with 200m jog in around 75 secs, or 8 x 400m at about mile (on a good day) to 3k pace with 2 min rest I made better progress (racing mid to low 8 for 3k). 12 x 400m @ 65 to 66 secs with 30 secs rest would have completely killed me. I guess each runner is different in the intensity that they can handle in training.

The important factor here that scientific research showed over and over again here is that you have a VO2MAX around 60 or in the 60s and elite runners around 80. So doing the same workout, say 10x60sec@7-8-min race pace with 35s rest is easier for them than for you, and they can absorb it and recover from you. You will be fried from such a workout. Same with longer reps, like 5x1k @3k pace. Elites with really high VO2MAX can do them and recover, but the average runner gets destroyed, EVEN IF PACE IS ADJUSTED.

That also means that while the workouts we are talking here might work and be appropriate for elite runners, they might not be the ones you should copy if you are a slow 15-20 min 5k guy. More aerobic running, tempos and threshold/CV training can probably improve the times of slow runners a lot without taxing in the dangerous area of VO2MAX intervals. Even Daniel's I-pace is only set around 95% of VO2MAX, which is right on the intensity that coach JS prescribes, but Daniels typically uses longer reps in the range of 3-4 min instead of 400s.

The aim of training is to allow you to run faster in races, not just to improve LTD, VO2 max etc. The session described (400's at 3k pace) therefore may or may not be appropriate depending on how they fit into the overall training progression.

I was more of an 800/1500 type than a 3km runner (1500 3.43/ 3km 8.18), but used to find 12x400 in 62 with a 30s recovery quite doable and recovery was no real issue. However, longer reps such as 4x1200 in 3.25 (3 mins ) Or shorter reps such as 3x4x200 in 26 off 30s would wipe me out for days.

Tuss wrote:

The aim of training is to allow you to run faster in races, not just to improve LTD, VO2 max etc. The session described (400's at 3k pace) therefore may or may not be appropriate depending on how they fit into the overall training progression.

I was more of an 800/1500 type than a 3km runner (1500 3.43/ 3km 8.18), but used to find 12x400 in 62 with a 30s recovery quite doable and recovery was no real issue. However, longer reps such as 4x1200 in 3.25 (3 mins ) Or shorter reps such as 3x4x200 in 26 off 30s would wipe me out for days.

Interesting. It sounds like this workout is easiest for pure milers and 15/3k types. Imagine how many 59s El G could tick off with 30 second recovery!

How would you adjust the 30/30 workout for a women? Maybe have said women go 35-37 per 200m and still jog the 100 in 30?

The thing is that there is no need for 3 k pace except when you prepare for a 3k race.This the great Daniels has made clear many times. You don`t get better effect out of running your reps at 3k pace than 5 k pace when the purpose is to contribute to a raised maxO2 level that is the result of a total concept where the 3 most important factors cooperate to the final result.As we know an individual can only reach a level of maxO2 that already is given by the gens. Therefore the purpose of running intervals at 5 k race pace is to make the body to be more energy efficient at that pace , not mainly to raise the maxO2 level. You can keep on run your maxVO2 intervals at 3 k pace but you won`t get more effect out of them compared to run them at 5 k race pace, and you into the bargain get an increased risk of injury. Maybe this is why Tinman`s guys so often gets injured?

I have heard numerous interviews where a Tinman talks about adjusting the pace of the workout to the conditions. From what I’ve seen on Strava his athletes don’t do this. The workouts you posted that Hunter did are a perfect example. He is doing the 400s at 3k PR pace down to 1500 PR pace. He didn’t adjust for conditions. If he did 12x400 in 64 with 30s rest at sea level, in training flats, etc. I think that would be better. But, again, Hunter did not do this and he has other workouts that show the same.

I tell once more , training and racing times are relative the level of the runner. The same basic training of maxVO2 intervals, lactate threshold intervals and aerobic power distance runs ( Long Steady Distance) functions in the same way even if you are an elite or hobby jogger.There is NO difference except the faster pace of the elite runner. Of course I have proved this in my coaching of a couple of hundreds runners with different levels .An example of this from my own time as an national elite runner was when I trained and talked with Suleiman Nyambui , silver in OG Moscow 1980 at 5000m . He told he used to run 6-8 x 800m at 2:06-2:08 in training and I used to do them at 2:16. I ran 5000m at 14:20 and he ran 13:12 , then we see the difference is 68 sec in race results and that is 68/ 12,5 laps= 5, 4 sec/ 400m. His 800s at training were at 63-64 sec/ 400m and mine at 68 sec/ 400m and we see the difference in training pace is relative to the race results.

-The Wizard -

Well, it depends how far that woman can run in 6 minutes, according to Billat. Let's say it is 1600m. So, 30 seconds at that pace is 133.33 meters.

So, put cones on the track at 133.33 meters and 333.33 meters. Run to the first cone, , jog [67.67 meters or half of 133.33 meters] to the 200m mark, run to the second cone, jog to the start line, doing each segment in 30 seconds. If your 1600m time is 6:32, run each segment in 32 seconds. If you misplace the cones by even .01 meter, the workout and your running career are both ruined. (JUST KIDDING!)

If you can't be bothered with measurements and cones, then the first runner would run "45-45" workout, alternating 200m and 100m segments. The second runner would do their segments in 48 seconds. There's nothing magic about 30 seconds. I think Billat even did research with 15 seconds and it still worked.

If you hate the track or don't have a track available, just do it as a fartlek 30 seconds hard, 30 seconds jog. Less precise than the track, but still a good workout.

Han Solo wrote:

I thought Tinman training was revolutionary and unique?

400s at Vo2 max plus a threshold run afterward is a staple of the Australian system under coach Bideau and has been for many years.

Not impressed.

Yes we know Han Solo you know more then every professional, college and High School coach. You know more then every professional, college and High School athlete.

Here we go once again with the words of Han Solo. He knows all.

Just another day of putting a program and coach down for Han Solo. It must feel so good to hide behind that Computer screen of yours.

Han Solo is Fake News wrote:

Han Solo wrote:

I thought Tinman training was revolutionary and unique?

400s at Vo2 max plus a threshold run afterward is a staple of the Australian system under coach Bideau and has been for many years.

Not impressed.

Yes we know Han Solo you know more then every professional, college and High School coach. You know more then every professional, college and High School athlete.

Here we go once again with the words of Han Solo. He knows all.

Just another day of putting a program and coach down for Han Solo. It must feel so good to hide behind that Computer screen of yours.

Nah, never claim to know more than anyone else actually. If you can find where I make that claim, please feel free to share that. I just enjoy giving Phil a hard time.

I guess having knowledge of training is putting someone down.

Han Solo wrote:

Han Solo is Fake News wrote:

Yes we know Han Solo you know more then every professional, college and High School coach. You know more then every professional, college and High School athlete.

Here we go once again with the words of Han Solo. He knows all.

Just another day of putting a program and coach down for Han Solo. It must feel so good to hide behind that Computer screen of yours.

Nah, never claim to know more than anyone else actually. If you can find where I make that claim, please feel free to share that. I just enjoy giving Phil a hard time.

I guess having knowledge of training is putting someone down.

Here's what I don't get Solo. You are not impressed by seeing this prescribed by Tinman because Bideau has also been doing this. Bideau is one of the best coaches in the world and you're acting like he's some scrub high school coach. For the record this is not a workout I'd like to do. My body just doesn't seem to do well on these type of paces and outside of strides and hill repeats I don't normally run faster than 10k effort.

I'm agreeing with JS. As for the original workout, sounds very tough. I would agree to stretch out the recovery a bit.

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

Han Solo wrote:

Nah, never claim to know more than anyone else actually. If you can find where I make that claim, please feel free to share that. I just enjoy giving Phil a hard time.

I guess having knowledge of training is putting someone down.

Here's what I don't get Solo. You are not impressed by seeing this prescribed by Tinman because Bideau has also been doing this. Bideau is one of the best coaches in the world and you're acting like he's some scrub high school coach. For the record this is not a workout I'd like to do. My body just doesn't seem to do well on these type of paces and outside of strides and hill repeats I don't normally run faster than 10k effort.

Great post. Tinman never said he invented something, or that his training is revolutionary. His training is based on scientific research and was inspired by many, many world-class coaches. Tinman did not just appear in the 90s out of nowhere and say "I got a new thing to train - CV reps!" Runners have been doing reps at ~10k effort or faster a long time before it.

This specific session seems to be based on Bideau (Craig Mottram's coach for those who don't know). Anyone who knows Tinman is that he wouldn't prescribe superhero workouts, and this is a workout that he actually has in his training plan on FinalSurge (10x1 min@2-mile effort, 30sec recovery on grass). So despite the low recovery and fast pace (VO2MAX), he thinks even recreational runners should be able to do it without killing themselves. By definition, most runners can hold their 2-mile pace for 8-11 minutes, and breaking it up in 10x1 minute or 10x300 or 10x400 with 30s rest should be doable, that's around 40-50% rest duration-wise.

Tinman talked to Bideau many times over e-mails (he wrote in his forum about that), exchanging thoughts and methods on how to optimize training for their runners. Most elite coaches are connected, in one way or another, and they all have one unique goal - to bring their athletes to their ultimate potential.

I got owned

Found a very interesting thread about the same topic many years ago.

Cabral himself said that he knows elite runners unable to do 12x400 @3k pace with only 45s rest. His insight:

---------

To run this workout at 12X400m 3000m pace all depends if the runner is a FT or a ST runner and it depends what´s the runner best distance event.

I followed very closely one 3:30 1500m pb, olympic bronze that is the portuguese Rui Silva. You can trust me that IF THE REST IS JUST 45secs he can´t run 12X400m at 60secs intervals that is 7:30 3000m slighly faster than his 3000m pb. Besides when he did fast 400s intervals he can´t stand shorter recovery than 60s-70secs stand.

Rui it´s a 1:44/3:30. As i said earlier he can´t stand 12x400m 3000m pace 45secs rest. However he can run your other example 12X400m 1500m pace with 3min rest but not just 12 but 20X400m might be 30X400m. On the opposite side it´s Antonio Pinto 3:37/13:02/27:08/59 HM/2:06:36.

Pinto could run 30X400m (i reapeat 30 times !) 45secs rest in about 59-60secs that is slightly faster than his 3000m pb, but he couldn´t run 12X400m at his 1500m pace despite the 3:00min rest.

However Rui and Pinto 3000m pb are very similar.

------

This makes a lot of sense, and explains why the Tinman Elite can do the workout since they are all 3k-5k specialists with strong endurance. But those of us who are speedier or better at the shorter distances might struggle with that amount of work at VO2MAX with such short rest (100m or 30s/40s/45s, whatever).

More detailed info in this thread (also many good posts by Jack Daniels, thread is back from when LRC was still very scientific and good):

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4009235

Han Solo wrote:

Han Solo is Fake News wrote:

Yes we know Han Solo you know more then every professional, college and High School coach. You know more then every professional, college and High School athlete.

Here we go once again with the words of Han Solo. He knows all.

Just another day of putting a program and coach down for Han Solo. It must feel so good to hide behind that Computer screen of yours.

Nah, never claim to know more than anyone else actually. If you can find where I make that claim, please feel free to share that. I just enjoy giving Phil a hard time.

I guess having knowledge of training is putting someone down.

You mean you have no real knowledge. Putting down down other coaches and athletes make you feel better.. when in fact your success is no where close to Tinman or all the other coaches you constantly put down over and over again.

You must feel so brave and knowledgeable behind that screen. Wow so profound.

There is a reason you don’t use your actual name.

.