Frank Shorter vs. Jim Ryun. Who ya got?

Voted for Shorter. Even though I voted for Rupp ahead of him in the semis.

Shorter had better range and a better international results, especially at the Olympics. Also ranked 1st or 2nd in the world for 10k or marathon (sometimes both) 7x over the span of 7 years. Shorter was within 1 second to Ryun at 2 mile PRs (8:26.2, 8:25.2). But credit to Ryun for his 13:38 (!) 5k compared to Shorter's 13:26.

Shorter's mile PR is only 4:02, but clearly that was outside his sweet spot and probably didn't compete much at that distance. Couldn't find a 10k result for Ryun, but I would look at him running a 10k as far enough out of his specialty to compare with Shorter running the mile.

Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:

Shorter had better range and a better international results, especially at the Olympics.

.

Ryun had a tremendous international career outside of the Olympics, possibly better than Shorter.

colorunner123 wrote:

Ryun probably would have won gold in '68 if the Olympics were at sea level. (7300 feet is REALLY high. By comparison, Denver is at only 5280 feet.)

I never understood this argument. If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude. Everyone ran the same race and the best runner who properly acclimated won.

Ryun v Shorter is a tough call. I went Shorter for the Oly medal personally.

did ya know wrote:

Ryun. Hands down.

Ryun is the ONLY high school runner to ever beat a reigning olympic champion. When Ryun ran his HS mile record of 3:55.3 he defeated Peter Snell by out kicking him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

Not as good as it looks. Snell was well off his peak in that race and was wrapping up a fairly disastrous (for him) retirement tour, when he lost to Crothers, whom he had beaten easily at the Olympics, as well as finishing last in a mile in Ireland (I think) after falling sick.

Snell was unbeatable from Rome '60 till Tokyo '64, where Ryun crashed out in his 1500 heat in 3.55.

Train at Altitude wrote:

colorunner123 wrote:

Ryun probably would have won gold in '68 if the Olympics were at sea level. (7300 feet is REALLY high. By comparison, Denver is at only 5280 feet.)

I never understood this argument. If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude. Everyone ran the same race and the best runner who properly acclimated won.

Ryun v Shorter is a tough call. I went Shorter for the Oly medal personally.

I believe they were actually limited by how long they could remain at altitude

Armstronglivs wrote:

did ya know wrote:

Ryun. Hands down.

Ryun is the ONLY high school runner to ever beat a reigning olympic champion. When Ryun ran his HS mile record of 3:55.3 he defeated Peter Snell by out kicking him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

Not as good as it looks. Snell was well off his peak in that race and was wrapping up a fairly disastrous (for him) retirement tour, when he lost to Crothers, whom he had beaten easily at the Olympics, as well as finishing last in a mile in Ireland (I think) after falling sick.

Snell was unbeatable from Rome '60 till Tokyo '64, where Ryun crashed out in his 1500 heat in 3.55.

He was 17...

It's strange to think that Ryun would still have been young enough to run the 1500 in Moscow.

There's all sorts of scenarios where a longer career would have created match-ups that are likely not thought of.

Herb Elliott versus Viren in the Munich 5000.

Jazy should have kept going to Mexico

Lame Fake Name wrote:

Those of you who Ryun would have won gold at sea level in 19968 most have not noticed who fast Keino ran in that 1500 and how much he won by. As to why Ryun didn't have a long career, he'd been world class since age 17 and being in two Olympic Games in those days was very exceptional. Plus, naive as it seems in retrospective, people really did have high hopes for that new pro track tour in 1974 and 1975. Ryun needed to make money and was probably getting a lot of pressure from his peers to join up.

It was the extreme altitude and recovering from a viral illness earlier in the year that basically lost it for Ryun in Mexico. In '68 he wasn't the runner he had been in the previous 2 years.

I recall some of his races in '66/'67 and I have never seen such a prodigy at 19 and 20 years of age (and not an "African age"). His destruction of the 1500 wr and Keino at the Colisseum Relays in '67 was quite unbelievable. In the blistering heat, he utterly destroyed Keino over the last 200-250m, winning by a margin of over 4 seconds and demolishing Elliot's wr. To me the Ryun of 66/67 was not matched for another decade, until Bayi and Walker and then Ovett and Coe emerged. His peak years were all too brief but he was ahead of his time.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Not as good as it looks. Snell was well off his peak in that race and was wrapping up a fairly disastrous (for him) retirement tour, when he lost to Crothers, whom he had beaten easily at the Olympics, as well as finishing last in a mile in Ireland (I think) after falling sick.

Snell was unbeatable from Rome '60 till Tokyo '64, where Ryun crashed out in his 1500 heat in 3.55.

He was 17...

True, but it should also be borne in mind that it wasn't Snell at anywhere near his best that he beat that day. A more interesting comparison would have been if Ryun at age 20 had gone up against the Snell who destroyed Jim Beatty and the best American milers at Compton and Modesto in '63, when Snell was competing in his off season.

If Snell and Ryun had met at their peaks - through time travel - that would have likely been the first sub-3.50 mile. And sub-1.43 half.

Train at Altitude wrote:

If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude.

I don't know for how long, but I do know Ryan did train at altitude (Alamosa, CO) prior to Mexico City. In Ryan's defense, Keino was born and raised at altitude. Even a prolonged training stint isn't the same thing. Not making excuses either. I also heard a story that Jack Daniels (or another physiologist) had convinced Ryan that no one could run faster than 3:37 at altitude and that perhaps Ryan let Keino go thinking he wouldn't be able maintain that pace. Could be nothing to that story as well.

The Brojos kinda 'Shorted' Ryun on the accolades.

1964 High School Junior

1. Olympic team as a high school junior

2. As a high school junior he first broke 4:00 with 3:59.0

3. 3:39.3 HSR and AJR

4. 3.39.0 HSR and AJR

1965 High School Senior

5. 3.55.3 was both the HSR and the AR defeating Olympic Champion Peter Snell

1966 College Freshman

6. 8:25.2 AR + still standing AJR in the two mile

7. 3:53.7 AJR in the mile

8. 1:44.9 WR +AR + AJR 880y

9. 3:51.3 WR + AR + still standing AJR

10. 3.36.1 AR, still standing AJR

1967 College Sophomore

11. 3:51.1 WR in the mile

12. 3:33.1 WR in the 1500

Keino beat Ryun once out of 5 attempts.

Keino beat Ryun ONCE at nearly 1.5 miles of altitude. Ryun destroyed Keino in every other race.

May 13, 1966 2 miles

1. 8:25.1 Jim Ryun AR

3. 8:29.8 Kip Keino

August 12, 1967 Emsley Carr Mile, London

1. 3:56.0 Jim Ryun

2. 3:57.4 Kip Keino

July 8, 1967 1500m US vs Commonwealth

1. 3:33.1 WR Jim Ryun

2. 3:37.2 Kip Keino

October 20, 1968 Mexico City Olympics

1. 3:34.9 Kip Keino

2. 3:37.8 Jim Ryun

January 22, 1972 Sunkist Indoor Los Angeles

1. 4:06.8 Jim Ryun

2. 4:07.3 Kip Keino

All-time US Junior List

1:43.55 Donavan Brazier (Texas A&M) 6/10/16

1:44.3+ Jim Ryun (Kansas) 6/10/66

1:45.07 ————Brazier 6/08/16

1:45.34 José Parilla (Tennessee) 5/19/91

1:45.54 Robby Andrews (Virginia) 6/09/10

1:45.5 ————Ryun 7/24/66

1:45.93i ————Brazier 1/16/16

1:46.08i ————Brazier 2/27/16

1:46.19 ————Brazier 5/14/16

1:46.42 Anthony Tufariello (Villanova) 6/03/78

3:36.1 Jim Ryun (Kansas) 7/17/66

3:37.5 Tom Byers (Ohio State) 7/24/74

3:37.9 ————Byers 6/22/74

3:38.26 Alan Webb (Virginia HS) 5/27/01

3:38.50 ————Webb 6/23/01

3:39.00 German Fernandez (Oklahoma State) 6/13/09

3:39.0 ————Ryun (Kansas HS) 6/28/64

3:39.3 ————Ryun 6/04/66

3:39.8 ————Byers 6/28/74

3:40.49 John Trautmann (Georgetown) 5/30/87

3:40.54 Gabe Jennings (Stanford) 6/04/98

3:40.64 Earl Jones (Eastern Michigan) 6/04/83

3:40.81 Blake Haney (Oregon) 6/10/15

3:40.87 Austin Mudd (Wisconsin) 4/29/12

3:41.09 Robby Andrews (Virginia) 5/16/10

3:51.3 Jim Ryun (Kansas) 7/17/66

3:53.43 Alan Webb (Virginia HS) 5/27/01

3:53.7 ————Ryun 6/04/66

3:55.02i German Fernandez (Oklahoma State) 2/28/09

3:55.3 ————Ryun (Kansas HS) 6/27/65

3:55.8 ————Ryun 4/23/66

3:56.50i ————Fernandez 1/24/09

3:56.8 ————Ryun 6/04/65

3:57.06 Dub Myers (Oregon) 5/14/83

3:57.15 Drew Hunter (adidas) 8/05/16

3:57.4 Steve Prefontaine (Oregon) 6/05/70

3:58.20i Cole Hocker (Oregon) 2/28/20

3:58.6 Jerry Richey (Pitt) 6/01/68

3:58.7 Mark Schilling (San José State) 6/09/73

3:58.84i Kirubel Erassa (Oklahoma State) 3/03/12

7:47.8+ Jim Ryun (Kansas) 5/13/66

7:47.97i German Fernandez (Oklahoma State) 2/14/09

7:49.16 Galen Rupp (Oregon) 7/17/05

7:50.06i Grant Fisher (unattached) 2/13/16

7:52.61i Ben Saarel (Colorado) 2/15/14

7:53.66i Cooper Teare (Oregon) 2/10/18

7:56.31i Chris Derrick (Stanford) 3/14/09

7:56.97i Nico Young (California HS) 2/08/20

7:57.30i ————Derrick 2/28/09

7:57.71i ————Fernandez 2/28/09

7:58.0 Gerry Lindgren (Washington State) 7/05/65

7:58.1+ Jeff Nelson (California HS) 5/06/79

Train at Altitude wrote:

colorunner123 wrote:

Ryun probably would have won gold in '68 if the Olympics were at sea level. (7300 feet is REALLY high. By comparison, Denver is at only 5280 feet.)

I never understood this argument. If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude. Everyone ran the same race and the best runner who properly acclimated won.

You can only acclimatize so much. Someone born and bred at altitude has an advantage.

Thanks, Malmo. I was searching for some of Ryun’s non-championship results earlier.

Olympic marathon medals are given too much weight in the public’s eyes. Look through the history of the Olympic marathon medalists. It is filled with guys that make you say, “oh, I forgot about him!” Or even, “who?”

Conversely, any time a new US miler arrives on the scene (Scott, Spivey, Jennings, Webb, Lagat, Manzano, Centro), the debate becomes: “how would Ryun fair against him today?” He’s the standard.

You rarely hear Frank Shorter’s name in these types of debates. He is influential, due to the timing of his wins, but he is not an all-time, breathtakingly astounding athlete like Ryun.

Ryun was a great junior and had the most potential that the US has seen. His career did not fulfill all of that potential. In contrast, Shorter delivered on the grand stage, at the Olympics and Fukuoka, when it was the major annual marathon on Earth.

The marathon is both much more boring, it was waaaaay less competitive at the time. Ryun all the way.

Good info. To be fair, I googled and didn't find much.

malmo wrote:

The Brojos kinda 'Shorted' Ryun on the accolades.

...

gofort wrote:

Ryun was a great junior and had the most potential that the US has seen. His career did not fulfill all of that potential. In contrast, Shorter delivered on the grand stage, at the Olympics and Fukuoka, when it was the major annual marathon on Earth.

What would he had needed to do to “fulfill his potential?”

3:49?

1:42?

13:00?

Olympic gold?

If there had been WC in his day, he would likely have 5 or more medals with many of them gold.

Shorter was great a couple times on a big stage, but let’s be real: the marathon is a sideshow event for people either too slow to compete at shorter distances, past their prime, or just hoping no competition shows up.

Silver and bronze in Munich were a guy who never had broken 2:12 and. 40-year old. Clown event. Kenny Moore was 4th. He didn’t even make the bracket.

colorunner123 wrote:

Train at Altitude wrote:

I never understood this argument. If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude. Everyone ran the same race and the best runner who properly acclimated won.

You can only acclimatize so much. Someone born and bred at altitude has an advantage.

Gammoudi was born at sea level or close to.

Mo G wrote:

colorunner123 wrote:

You can only acclimatize so much. Someone born and bred at altitude has an advantage.

Gammoudi was born at sea level or close to.

That is a great point that I hadn't thought about. Thanks for pointing it out. There must be individual variation in tolerance to high altitude. Here is Colorado, for example, there are some very good runners who suck at the Pikes Peak Ascent no matter how much they try to acclimatize. As a general rule, however, sea level-born stars like Ron Clarke, Derek Clayton, and Jim Ryun aren't going to do well at 7,000+ feet.