Tinman Base Training Tips

If an endurance-based runner like Drew is able to run 7:59 on a flat track and 3:57 in indoors off of Tinman training(very endurance focused), I don't think 13:30's is out of the question

His PR to this day is 13:21 after 4 years of pro training and living at altitude. To say he could have run 13:30 that day is idiotic.

Lol come on man. I know you like tinman but do you really think Hunter could have run a 13:33 at 18 that day? Coaches/runners love to say "tempo" effort to hype up performances. He was a high schooler running in a state meet, do you really think he held back in it?

He's a good American coach but the way his followers venerate him as some revolutionary running god is strange ... so far he has achieved real success with one athlete (Hunter). He isn't even close to the level that Jerry, Al Sal, Canova, Lydiard etc... are on but he always gets mentioned with them. Unfortunately, it look like he has overtrained some young runners - (The Ping sisters or starters, we will see with his other young athletes who are setting 14 year old world records...)

tin can man wrote:

His PR to this day is 13:21 after 4 years of pro training and living at altitude. To say he could have run 13:30 that day is idiotic.

To not take anything Tinman says as gospel is idiotic. He is never wrong.

And for the OP : follow Lydiard or Canova base training, it would be good to read their real books but if you don't have time take a look at these short pdfs.

Lydiard

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdf

Canova

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zzkn1-wR0dYzkzM2U0ZjctMjE1NC00ZjI4LWI5YTgtMTRhY2NhYjBhZjQz/edit

You'll be an aerobic monster by the time XC comes around.

Lol come on man. I know you like tinman but do you really think Hunter could have run a 13:33 at 18 that day? Coaches/runners love to say "tempo" effort to hype up performances. He was a high schooler running in a state meet, do you really think he held back in it?

He's a good American coach but the way his followers venerate him as some revolutionary running god is strange ... so far he has achieved real success with one athlete (Hunter). He isn't even close to the level that Jerry, Al Sal, Canova, Lydiard etc... are on but he always gets mentioned with them. Unfortunately, it look like he has overtrained some young runners - (The Ping sisters or starters, we will see with his other young athletes who are setting 14 year old world records...)

Well said. Tinman has high school sophomores running 70 miles per week while doing more than 2 hours of tempo or CV training per week. And we're supposed to believe that's conservative and risk-free just because they aren't running crazy fast? BS. Tinman doesn't care about his athletes, he cares about his resume - burnout some kids so he can brag about their improvement in high school and when they suck in college he gets to trash the college coach.

40 miles per week with a 20 min tempo and one repeat 200 or 400 workout per week is MUCH more conservative for a sophomore and leaves a ton of room for improvement.

For the record, the HS 5k record is 13:37 by Rupp.

When I read his response, I thought of that same podcast (I think it was originally a podcast-maybe I'm mistaken) where Tinman said that. However, I don't think being in the top 16 boys in America makes one average for one's age group. If I could say I am #16 in America, I definitely wouldn't call myself average.

Tinman can be abrupt on podcasts, etc., but I don't think the guy is truly arrogant. He just strongly believes what he's saying (don't we all). I know when you are debating him, you better show up with solid facts and not vague references to Lydiard and Daniels. But argue with Tinman about his system - don't argue with a guy asking how to implement that system in his training and other guys suggesting how to do that.

tin can man wrote:

8:43 is on pace for a 13:30 in the 5k. Do you think Drew could have run 13:30 that day?

It is on pace for 13:37. But you are making the error of extrapolating the pace. He was instructed to run the 3200m at 5000m EFFORT, not pace. How does a 5k feel? The first 3.2k feel hard, but the last 1.8k, and especially the very last 600m with the kick feel MUCH harder.

So in the 3200m, he did not just run his 5k pace for 3200m, but an even 5k effort across the whole 3200m.

The point is, he could have run 10-15s faster that day. He proved indoor he can run 7:59 3k, which is a 8:34 3200m. Spot on with the 8:30-8:35 prediction I'm giving him had he raced all-out. These last 10-15s make a significant difference. With these times, he could have run around 14 flat in the 5k, or a little bit faster. Very realistic.

Tinman is an internet running coach, not an elite coach. He gets results so he can sell his product, even if it goes against long term athletic development. He shared Aidan Puffer's training logs at 14, and the kid is racing 5ks and running up to 50-60mpw plus a day of xt. How many burnouts do we need before realising that this much work is not a good idea for a young athlete? Same thing for the Pings, we could actually be witnessing their burnout right now.

That's my problem with his training methodology. Other coaches (SB) have posted about this, it is smarter in the long to hold your athletes back during middle school and allow them to progress normally so they can have success as collegiate and senior athletes, not break 14 year old age group records.

Regarding his following, I guess he can't do much about it, but it does get annoying seeing tons of people regard him as the greatest coach ever when his pro results do not show that. His best results are by middle school athletes, let's see what will happen to them in 5-10 years...

Totally wrong understanding of Tinman training. His training is EASIER than what most HS coaches are doing! He focuses on extremely easy runs, easy mileage and soft/moderate workouts. He doesn't prescribe large amounts of VO2MAX intervals or anaerobic capacity sessions, and doesn't do any all-out sprints. It's literally impossible to get injured or burn out during HS with his program.

He is an online coach, but recently he became owner of the "Tinman Elite", who are professional runners, all in the 13:10-13:40 5k range from 800m-Marathon. Every single of these runners PR'ed in Tinman Elite during the last 1-2 years.

Loudon Valley, Drew Hunter's HS, has incorporated Tinman's training philosophy and went from a bottom-tier HS to the powerhouse in the nation. It works! The kids don't get injured, don't get burned out, but improve massively. The CV workouts are incredibly effective. Tinman has done nothing but help the running community in the last 20 years, he used to post regularly here before most of the current users were even born. But I understand, success brings hate.

Tinman has done nothing except make himself a ton of money by burning out young runners such as the Pings. He is a propagandist.

All of the tinman athletes were hurt at the same time last year. High volume and long slow workouts aren't easy, they actually have a higher risk of injury due to the amount of impact. That is why marathon runners have a higher injury rate than 800 and 1500m runners.

On letsrun we love successful coaches and programs. The problem is tinman hasn't achieved success yet. His pro group is a bunch of guys that live at altitude and train full time. Of course they will improve slightly from the age of 22-28 especially at altitude for the first time. When you look at the # of NCAA All Americans in that group and Hunter is the only one who achieved anything noteworthy under tinman. That's failure.

And this is why people don't like tinman, his followers see him as a coaching god when that really isn't the case.

-Pings are arguably burning out

-Hunter missed world champs becuase he was, you know ...

-50-60 mpw as a 14 year is not "easy" training no matter how you spin it, "CV" training is still hard training and miles are miles, it will inevitably cause burnout

-Don't know much about LV but aren't they that school with a ton of transfers? And calling BS on that injury thing, everyone gets hurt

LOL! Come on man I know you are smarter than this.

The fastest guy on their team has run 13:21, not even in the same ballpark as 13:10. Everyone should PR after college. If you are a professional runner that doesn't PR after college you are doing something very wrong. Also, embarrassingly not every guy on Tinman elite has PR'd after college. Look at Sydney Gidabuday. Ran 13:29 in college and has gotten much slower with Tinman training.

Loudon Valley became successful through getting already talented runners to join them. Several other high school teams have tried Tinman training with nothing close to the same success as Loudon Valley. The number one thing that makes a high school team good is culture, training is completely secondary to team culture. When you have a bunch of guys going to Loudon Valley just to run there you're going to have a good team culture. At the elite level, where Tinman has not done great, is where training philosophy matters. CV workouts are nothing special or magical. They are only a small part of training that several other coaches have been doing for years. Let us know when Tinman has guys running sub 13 or low 27 minutes. Then you can talk about how great Tinman is.

I've seen some of his other posts - he lost a lot of weight and achieved success under Tinman training, which is great for him.

Would he have improved with Lydiard/Canova/Billat/Daniels ... training? Most probably, yes. The difference is, Tinman is more than a coach. He is a marketer, a salesman and an entrepreneur. He will make you believe that his training, and only his, can get you results so he can sell more plans.

The others aren't/weren't online coaches so they don't have to put all the effort into marketing their work.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

He is an online coach, but recently he became owner of the "Tinman Elite", who are professional runners, all in the 13:10-13:40 5k range from 800m-Marathon. Every single of these runners PR'ed in Tinman Elite during the last 1-2 years

Tinman has coached zero 13:10 runners. He has coached zero 13:20 runners. His best athletes are just over 13:20. Your post is a lie.

Every singe of these runners has also had an injury in the last 1-2 years EXCEPT the new athletes that joined within the last year. Although I believe Templeton has already had an injury. Barazza and Gidabuday are still healthy I believe but the rest have had injuries. Every single one.

I can't understand why you, JS continue to brag about being the best coach in the world. Those guys in Iten and Eldoret don't know who you are. You DID coach one amateur for the CIM. We do not need to recount what happened there.....

A few things:

- You speak often as though you have been coached by Tom. You have not. I have, and much of what you say is plainly false.

- For the period of time I was coached by Tom I felt more burnt out than I ever had before or since. I did more specific work earlier than I ever have. Also, he had me to 12 x 20 seconds at mile effort with only 40 seconds rest the day before each workout for 24 weeks straight. That's not easy and when you do it twice a week the day before every other workout, it takes a lot out of you.

Here's 2 weeks of workouts a full 6 weeks before my key race exactly as written:

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 3-mile Tempo Run (jog 3 minutes) + 6 x 800m @ 5k speed (jog 300m recoveries)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 5-mile Tempo Run, jog 5 minutes and then run 5 x 15 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 45 seconds between reps)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 5 x 1 mile @ Threshold (jog 1 minute between/after reps) + 5 x 30 second hills @ 1 mile race speed/effort & rhythm (jog 60 seconds between reps) + 5 x 30 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 90 seconds between reps)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 3 mile Tempo Run (jog 4 minutes) + 5 x 1000m @ 5k speed (jog 400m recoveries)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

This was after 6 weeks of at least 1 5K specific workout each week starting with (3 mile tempo + 14 x 1 minutes @3K effort with 30 seconds jog) and, like I said, I still had 6 weeks to my key race after this. I was toast and I feel lucky not to have been injured. I think you said "he doesn't prescribe a lot of VO2 sessions". It all ended up resulting in a 10 second 5K PR. I have since run a full minute faster on slightly higher mileage and occasional strictly speed focused workouts in place of constant strength based stuff.

Seriously, every single workout under Tom was hard. However moderate it looks on paper, doing 20 to 30 minutes of CV or LT paced work followed by hills, followed by speed takes a lot out of you, especially when you do it twice a week and it's always preceded by that 12 x 20 seconds workout the day before.

- I have seen Loudon Valley HS training. It is much less intense than standard Tinman stuff. Most of the year there is only 1 workout per week. That workout is usually the one shown on the workout Wednesday video that is out there. But occasionally that workout is only hill reps. They only start doing 2 workouts per week for the last 6-8 weeks of the season. They also do pure sprinting very often starting in base phase. Only easy running and strides for 4-6 weeks between seasons too.

In summary:

You. Have. No. Idea. What. You're. Talking. About.

Also, you sound like the member of a cult. A super lame cult.

Damn that looks very intense and not moderate at all! I imagine that would burn you out. How old were you when you did this? At least 20 I'm hoping?

agreed wrote:

Damn that looks very intense and not moderate at all! I imagine that would burn you out. How old were you when you did this? At least 20 I'm hoping?

Yeah, 32 at the time. But I had no running background. It was my 3rd year of running at the time and he was aware if he ever read anything I wrote him, which who knows?