Jorge Torres

Facts probably does spend a lot of time on the board, but if you haven't notice your buddy Orson does too. Also, if you haven't noticed, Facts is just a fan of Jorge's. He knows a GREAT runner when he sees one. From the way Orson talks, I wouldn't be surprised if he were one of Arkansas' Canadian Bacon. So he indeed is the one taking it in the ass from Allistair, not Facts taking it from Jorge since it is likely they have never met. It is a shame Allistair has to have his friends, or in this case, significant others, to get on here and defend him all day!

I wonder wrote:

This dude FACTS is a real tosser - does he actually think that either Torres or Cragg get up dreaming of beating each other - give them both some credit they are both looking towards greater things!!

No, Cragg dreams of defeating Jorge, but Jorge doesn't have to dream. He just looks at his Cross Championship trophy and thinks, "Oh yeah, I already did that."

I seriously doubt that either athlete is losing sleep over the other. Yet another rivalry created by less talented runners who live vicariously through the superiority of others.

And your other two references to cite the superiority of outdoor track were KK and Paula Radcliffe -- neither of whom goes to the track with anything that could be called regularity.

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"It only insults those who think that indoors is more important to the rest of the world than either outdoors or even cross...."

Actually, what I do not understand is the need to rate one of them above the other. They are three legitimate athletic endeavors, each requiring considerable training, detemination, and so forth. I attend track meets (outdoors because there is no indoor track in Ohryghun), cross country meets, an occasional road run, and participate in marathons and ultras.

I continue to admire and respect athletes of all events, whatever the venue.

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"I'm not sure where you are seeing any intense dislike or even viciousness,..."

"The clowns are in the racewalk, but I'm not going to go there...."

I suppose using those two sentences would be a start. "Clowns?" There was a pretty good race-walker I used to meet on some of my training runs. I am not fast. My training pace on roads is about 7:15-7:30 -- we had several good conversations comparing our different training regimens. He was training for the '92 Olympics. I was training for a 50-mile trail run. It was intereting and educational to learn about an event that was totally foreign to me.

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"...Cragg's double was definitely tough and impressive, as was Gorton's. Yet, I would be more impressed if Cragg was in the top 10 at World Cross..."

Well, gosh, since he has already said he won't be going over there while he is still in school, that's a good choice. Always pick something that isn't going to happen as a standard. Now we are back to "Jorge would have beat Cragg if he had showed up at the NCAA indoors."

R. Jacobs has more medals from the outdoor season than from the indoor season. To me, it is more impressive that she can compete at elite level on both circuits, but I am sure you can dodge that issue somehow.

"Maybe you think that isn't fair, but that's simply how it is in this sport. The more competition and the better the competition, the more highly esteemed the performance..."

It is tempting to bring up Broe and his avoiding some competition in regards to this last statement, something about his reason for not going to world xc last year stirs in my memory.

Fairness has not been an issue here. It is the idea that one of the seasons is more important, more valid, more something than the other. Factually, they aren't. Subjectively, they can be. The monetary prizes are determined by marketing, but the records set indoors are just that, a record for some event done indoors. To say that they have some comparative merit is as bad as the recent attempt at comparing J. Torres' xc 10k times with outdoor track 10k times--they just don't match up as valid comparisons.

We, fans of some form of running, whether T&F, XC, roads, or trails, are lucky to be able to watch so many different forms of it. I have ran (competitively even if my competitors didn't know it) from 50 yards (tells about my age) to 100 miles. At the NCAA outdoor championships we were among the first to arrive and the last to leave. I just enjoy all parts of track and field and running and to decide that one is better than the other robs the fan of overall enjoyment.

one thing i dont think people understand, is that DURABILITY is a TALENT. you cant say dum de dum, you dont understand, cragg would be unbelievable if he could have a long stretch of uninterrupted training, and in the same breath, cite cragg's "talent" as why he will drill torres outdoors. what gifts cragg may possess in VO2 max he may certainly lack biomechanically.

its great that alistair can pop off a 3:46 untrained, but there are no awards for that. one could easily say jorge could hammer something much better than the 3:42 he ran last year, if he trained for it, and peaked for it, &c &c.

all that having been said, it would be PHENOMENAL to see the both of them line up in a 5k outdoors, with jorge's large base and cragg (hopefully) with the longest uninterrupted stretch of training in his career.

Forget about Torres and Craig for a minute and remember BOAZ is the defending 10k champion. He is the one who pushed Craig to his 13:28 and they both ran 4:08 for the last mile. Boaz is going to hammer the pace outdoors as well and a doubling Craig just might break away from his lovely gayetville fans.

laissez-faire wrote:

DURABILITY is a TALENT.

BOOYAH. Exactly. Go Torres.

Leskis

Who is Craig???

Michigander wrote:

Forget about Torres and Craig for a minute and remember BOAZ is the defending 10k champion. He is the one who pushed Craig to his 13:28 and they both ran 4:08 for the last mile. Boaz is going to hammer the pace outdoors as well and a doubling Craig just might break away from his lovely gayetville fans.

PR,

Ritz had retired from what I heard.

Yes, you are certainly still an idiot.

Check out the Wheeling HS record list for track. Granted Jorge boycotted track his senior year, but still, in HS, he wasn't dominant in track as much as he was in XC.

http://whs.dist214.k12.il.us/www/activities/boystrack/tfioutdoorrecords.htm

Wake up Facts!!. You are either ignorant or have no knowledge at all. In world Cross, Torres has never beaten Cragg, when they were both at school Juniors) Cragg beat Torres in Belfast. http://www2.iaaf.org/WXC99/indexframe.asp?Page=results/byevent.html

rayracer,

World Cross Smorld Cross. In their last head-to-head meeting, Jorge toyed with Cragg until he put him away at the end.

Cragg is Jorge's bitch.

Wait for it...you know I'm right...here it comes...the bitch slap heard all the way to Arkansas...

SSSMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCKKKK!!!!!

If I'm not mistaken, Orson finished top ten in the Boston Marathon back in the day. Some of you hotshots need to think a little of who you might be talking about before being so beligerent. Jorge and Alistair are both fast and manly...relax and we'll see them showdown in June...and August.

As much a Fan of Cragg as I am, I think all those who are defending him on this board...we really cant do or say anything until CRAGG ACTUALLY BEATS TORRES head to head. Cmon guys....geez...dont waste your time.

No matter how well Jorge did in XC last season, Cragg is still the one to beat on the track. Jorge has yet to prove to everyone that he is as dominant on the track.

Separate references supporting separate points. Is that concept too complex for you?

I see no need to rate an AOY either, but we all do it.

Sure, but a win in one venue does not mean the same as a win in another venue. An indoor crown will never be as great as an outdoor WC or Olympic title.

You honestly see dislike and viciousness in terming racewalkers "clowns"? Here's a phrase to add to your vocabulary today: "light-hearted". Only goes to show that you'd rather try to find fault where ever you can, rather than just laughing it off.

I already told you, I'm not going to go there regarding the "loudest whisper" contest.

Another term to induct into your vocabulary today: "hypothetical". Did I say that Cragg would have to necessarily achieve top 10 in World Cross NOW? Nope. You only chose to interpret it that way. Presumably, Cragg will have a long career in which to perform at the World XC Champs.

Do you mean medals at the world level? At the world level, she has 2 outdoor medals and 3 indoor medals. If you are talking about medals at national level competition, it is no stretch to say that RJ could probably have as many if not more medals from indoor competition as she does from outdoor competition, if she chose to. For example, she doesn't have more outdoor 1500m titles than she does indoor 1500m/mile titles because she failed indoors, she just didn't compete indoors as much as she has outdoors. If facts like those constitute a "dodge", then so be it.

I agree 100%.

It actually breaks down very easily. Is a world cross or Olympic or WC title more or less esteemed than a world indoor title? Which is harder to achieve, based on the typical quality of the competition? Let's try another analogy here, why is DI XC and T&F followed more closely than DII or DIII or NAIA? Because, among other reasons, the competition is of a much higher caliber at DI. But maybe all other running fans are wrong and you are right.

All the platitudes aside, I can still enjoy indoor or cross country competition just as much even though I realize that it isn't the Olympics or anywhere near it. I like them all equally, I've robbed myself of not one iota of enjoyment by noting the inherent heirarchy. Competition is still competition, whether it's the best vs. the best or not. Yet, the best vs. the best (i.e. the Olympics or WC or WXC) ranks higher than the best vs. the rest (indoors or some events at NC).

But you go right on thinking that your conference championship medal is just as good as an Olympic medal.... not that I would have either.

what the f***? when did ritz move, why the f*** isnt he running?