Tuohy sets indoor 1500 PR with significant negative split

FastTuohy wrote:

Perhaps we should post the articles of her successful races. The tactics did not lose that Millrose mile. The same tactics resulted in 4:33.87 outdoors. So what is your point?

She just did not have it that day, just like recently at NXN and the Sanders 3000. But then again, there are the other 95+% of her races where things seemed to work out ok.

So if you were her coach, you would have had her run positive splits for the nth time yesterday? I am applauding her coach and her for developing a more complete racing repertoire; apparently they are in agreement with me where you simplistically only care about the "W" with the same "Go Pre!" tactic over and over.

Until yesterday, none of us knew, and probably not even her coach was certain, that she could close out a race with a last 800 like that. We are now seeing a more mature athlete in the making.

Next step of maturity: start running just fast enough to win every race. Don’t let people know exactly what your fitness is by redlining every single time out. Make your competition think you’re gonna beat them by a few seconds no matter what they do. Save the best legs for the biggest races. Winning with nobody else in the picture all the time isn’t a great way to develop race tactics or instincts. Not to mention it’s very tough mentally and physically to go 100% all the time when nobody is near you.

Next step of maturity: start running just fast enough to win every race. Don’t let people know exactly what your fitness is by redlining every single time out. Make your competition think you’re gonna beat them by a few seconds no matter what they do. Save the best legs for the biggest races. Winning with nobody else in the picture all the time isn’t a great way to develop race tactics or instincts. Not to mention it’s very tough mentally and physically to go 100% all the time when nobody is near you.[/quote]

+1

YMMV wrote:

Jedsdead wrote:

do you mean that tactic of winning?

https://www.lohud.com/story/sports/high-school/track/2018/02/03/stunner-tuohy-loses-lead-and-millrose-mile-during-last-lap-flynn-w-personal-best/1089108001/

really, you pick one loss and use that to justify that her style is completely flawed??

I do agree she needs to learn other approachs to keep getting better....but she has won 95% of all of her races, and broken a stupid number of records. I would say that her style has worked very well.

YMMV wrote:

So if you were her coach, you would have had her run positive splits for the nth time yesterday? I am applauding her coach and her for developing a more complete racing repertoire; apparently they are in agreement with me where you simplistically only care about the "W" with the same "Go Pre!" tactic over and over.

Until yesterday, none of us knew, and probably not even her coach was certain, that she could close out a race with a last 800 like that. We are now seeing a more mature athlete in the making.

No, not sure where you got that idea. Above I said this "Recall she lost this race to Lawson 3 years ago getting outkicked even though she went 31.5 for the last 200 to finish in 4:25. While it is good to practice various tactics, in a race against the best she would still need to set a hard pace the whole race to either separate or wear them down." Which I still believe is where she is at.

Before this thread was started I posted this yesterday on the "High Schoolers going for Fast times thread".

"Tuohy wins NY State 1500 in record 4:20.8. Ran it weird for her - 1st 700 at 36 sec/lap then accelerated to run 2:15.5 for last 800. She seems to be practicing at running races different ways."

So I am agreeing with you on learning to run different ways. But you seemed to say her tactics resulted in the bad race at Millrose and I pointed out those same tactics resulted in other very successful races. So that is what I am questioning.

webby wrote:

Jamin'sHSClassmate wrote:

Clearly a solid time. About 10 seconds off her 4:33 mile, though. The negative split is positive.

It's 6 seconds off her record-breaking 4:33.87. Running alone. No one but you and Rojo sees a problem with that.

A 4:20.81 is worth a 4:41.9 mile (4:41.0 - 4:42.9, depending on the conversion tool used). So she is 8 seconds off. A good run regardless.

BasicBich wrote:

But can she do it on a cold rainy day in Stoke ?

?⚽️

We can't say how she would have faired with different tactics in her many wins since she never tried them. At least with Nico Young we know that he can lead it out as in NXN, OR he can sit-and-kick off a fast pace as against Sprout last year in running 8:40. I posted the Millrose race to show that her front-running tactics were not bulletproof, a more sensible race would likely have at least given her a good chance for the win. NXN was a close call.

I think that she and her coach are finally learning that she has to develop better racing instincts as she will soon be in a tougher milieu (NCAA) and crushing her opponents from the gun won't always be an option. I don't care what your talent level is, as a high schooler you should be running many different types of races to develop a quiver of tactical tools to employ under any level of pressure. Many high school girl phenoms don't do this and suffer accordingly in college when they are no longer even the fastest girl on their team, much less the country.

She is learning now and that is what I was glad to support. She is going in the right direction and I have been clear on that since my first post and none of your complaining changes that.

I would also like for her to learn to employ controlled tactical surging, as used by Kelati and others, but that is something that can be done in college.

I have to disagree with you. There is a major difference between Tuohy and Young. Young has had runners close to his level all through HS.. When you have others running close to you, you can try different tactics. Until NXN this year, Tuohy has had NO competition. No one close to her. So are you suggesting she slow down and wait for others to catch up?? THat really makes no sense at all.

Anyway, I'm a fan of hers as well....not trying to be combative to your opinion, I just have a different one.

Not a PR, according to athletic.net. Still a good time though but fake news!!!

I know it is inconceivable that someone might deliberately run a negative split in a race, which yes means "slowing down" from a balls-out pace in the first half. A shocker to you armchair experts, I know.

She had a horrible start and had to fight her way to the front of the pack. The acceleration was a sight to behold.

YMMV wrote:

I posted the Millrose race to show that her front-running tactics were not bulletproof, a more sensible race would likely have at least given her a good chance for the win. NXN was a close call.

I agree with most of what you say, I just don't know that a different strategy at Millrose would have worked better. It was just a bad day.

Her coach after that race said this.

"Despite her lead, Diglio knew early on something was wrong.

Aiming to break 4:40, she was behind her projected 800-meter split by three seconds, he noted. She completed 809 meters in 2:19.18.

Diglio rushed to the finish well before Tuohy relinquished her lead, worried she was injured.

In fact, his concern began after just 400 meters.

He said after the race she reported she never felt right but was unhurt.

“She was struggling from the beginning,” Diglio said. … “She didn’t have it.”

NY_HSCoach wrote:

She had a horrible start and had to fight her way to the front of the pack. The acceleration was a sight to behold.

Yup. That is also something she could work on. Getting out quicker off the line. Others have pointed this out.

I don't think she had any record in mind. It just happened. Each race is different but looked like she was fresh as a daisy at the end.

YMMV wrote:

Jedsdead wrote:

I have to disagree with you. There is a major difference between Tuohy and Young. Young has had runners close to his level all through HS.. When you have others running close to you, you can try different tactics. Until NXN this year, Tuohy has had NO competition. No one close to her. So are you suggesting she slow down and wait for others to catch up?? THat really makes no sense at all.

Anyway, I'm a fan of hers as well....not trying to be combative to your opinion, I just have a different one.

I know it is inconceivable that someone might deliberately run a negative split in a race, which yes means "slowing down" from a balls-out pace in the first half. A shocker to you armchair experts, I know.

You are calling others 'armchair experts'...yet you think Tuohy and her coach are ' finally learning that she has to develop better racing instincts'. Yes, possibly the greatest HS female runner and her coaches are finally learning from the great YMMV of LetsRun.

Whew, thanks...I'm pretty sure you saved her running career.

800 positive split

1,500 and above even to negative split

astro wrote:

I don't think she had any record in mind. It just happened. Each race is different but looked like she was fresh as a daisy at the end.

this is all speculative, but i'd be a little surprised if she wasn't aware.

weird lechers wrote:

Wow....

the weird obsessive white teen girl lechery of letsrun continues. Did coevett start this thread? Oh, I forgot, he's more into boys.

She's the current best HS girl and potentially the best in history. There isn't anything creepy about being fans of the sport.