amkelley wrote:
[quote]Star wrote:
As bad as it is, the racist and misogynist posts shed a light onto what's going in people's minds that you otherwise would not know.
I kind of feel enlightened.
It is enlightening? Are you sure you don't mean it feels comfortable to hear views similar to yours? The learning circuits in our brains are activated when we agree with the viewpoint we are hearing.
alt-right posts wrote:
tank girl wrote:
This is a very thorough and articulate response. The Brojos, Soprano, and Gault will dismiss it outright.
This is what is most frustrating about it. The Brojos claims that they do not want this type of content, but they refuse to listen to people who tell them that there are actually ways to greatly improve these issues. I suspect they continue to host this content, not because they are lazy, but because they are sympathetic to the viewpoints that are expressed. Rojo in particular.
Full disclosure, I post under 3 main names on this forum, because sometimes I need to get my sillies out and wish to stay anonymous. Maybe I will one day just commit to one, but the takes sometimes just feel like they need to come from a different account. I can’t be the only person who does this.
If I were on Reddit, the 10 minute wait time to post would have no effect on this type of posting.
As for up/down voting, with a forum that is relatively smaller like this one, it basically accomplished that itself just with response frequency. If a thread is not on the first page of the board after 12-24 hours, it was deemed less interesting by the community.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
alt-right posts wrote:
This is what is most frustrating about it. The Brojos claims that they do not want this type of content, but they refuse to listen to people who tell them that there are actually ways to greatly improve these issues. I suspect they continue to host this content, not because they are lazy, but because they are sympathetic to the viewpoints that are expressed. Rojo in particular.
Full disclosure, I post under 3 main names on this forum, because sometimes I need to get my sillies out and wish to stay anonymous. Maybe I will one day just commit to one, but the takes sometimes just feel like they need to come from a different account. I can’t be the only person who does this.
If I were on Reddit, the 10 minute wait time to post would have no effect on this type of posting.
As for up/down voting, with a forum that is relatively smaller like this one, it basically accomplished that itself just with response frequency. If a thread is not on the first page of the board after 12-24 hours, it was deemed less interesting by the community.
You have three different usernames, just like people on reddit do. My point was that it creates accountability just to have the same username over and over again. People recognize the username, and the user feels more accountable than if they can whip up a new username on the fly. Also, reddit user's post/comment histories are publicly viewable, which allows other users to peek and see if the person their responding to is just a troll.
Upvoting and downvoting would work within threads too, with individual posts. Like, the posts in this thread by "Bergesen is a Hypocrite" would probably get downvoted for being so frothy and ridiculous, and they would drop to the bottom of the thread and maybe just be hidden entirely.
It's not like the way to combat this doesn't exist, but it would require a more valid registration process.
Which means this board is, and will end up, just like the Yahoo boards of the past that were toxic, repetitive, mean-spirited, etc., and long gone.
The claim that the current system protects whistle-blowers is BS. Have an email address for that. Just like you can create a fake Reddit account on a throwaway email address, whistle-blowers can do the same to report to you.
I bought ink by the barrel back in the day, I understand publishing. In the end, you're going to claim you're a platform, right?
tank girl wrote:
Soprano wrote:
Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
Did you ironically use an unregistered anonymous name to make this post or sarcastically use it?
enlightening? wrote:
amkelley wrote:
[quote]Star wrote:
As bad as it is, the racist and misogynist posts shed a light onto what's going in people's minds that you otherwise would not know.
I kind of feel enlightened.
It is enlightening? Are you sure you don't mean it feels comfortable to hear views similar to yours? The learning circuits in our brains are activated when we agree with the viewpoint we are hearing.
No, I tend to walk around with rose colored glasses and my default view is that most people are good-hearted.
I am appalled by the comments, but now I am more informed that many people still are so bigoted in their hearts in the 21st century.
More people than I expected.
And the 2016 election kind of verified to me that what many anonymous posters are saying here, they are voting that way as well.
Dont change this site . I love the lol's ,and it gets me through the workday . The anger of Kara and sally make me happy , and it is quite clear they spend a lot of time on this site as well.
enlightening? wrote:
amkelley wrote:
[quote]Star wrote:
As bad as it is, the racist and misogynist posts shed a light onto what's going in people's minds that you otherwise would not know.
I kind of feel enlightened.
It is enlightening? Are you sure you don't mean it feels comfortable to hear views similar to yours? The learning circuits in our brains are activated when we agree with the viewpoint we are hearing.
Absolutely enlightening . Like the "Do you like Pets" thread turning into a pro canibal thread.
So according to the Outside article, LRC would do something to improve the website, “BUT ITS JUST TOO HARD!!!”
Too many participation trophies for Ivy League College Boys. Awww
Star wrote:
tank girl wrote:
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
Did you ironically use an unregistered anonymous name to make this post or sarcastically use it?
So you’re defending LRC’s position of anonymity by arguing that users shouldn’t post anonymously?
lol
Soprano, you do realize that by arguing for the ease of creating registered usernames that you’re refuting Wejo’s position that anonymity helps whistle blowers, right?
lol
keep it as it is. pay no attention to the thought police. if you don't like it go somewhere else or make your own website.
any blatantly racist or whatever phobic should be dealt with. otherwise let the honest discussion flow.
tank girl wrote:
Soprano wrote:
Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
She states, anonymously.
reddit user wrote:
Soprano wrote:
One thing I want to address from the article because I see it get brought up all the time, is the whole concept of anonymity on the internet. The article says:
I just think the discussion is being framed in a pretty ridiculous way. It's pretending like LetsRun.com is some outlier because users can post anonymously. The whole discussion about registration is one thing, but the fact is on most online forums, you are anonymous. I post on Reddit all the time and am 100% anonymous; no one will ever know who I am. All you need to sign up and start posting is a username. They make you input an email address, but you don't have to verify it to post so it doesn't even need to be a real email. Just as a test I signed up with an account under the email
fake123@fake.comand was able to register and post. Took about 30 seconds.
I realize that a lot of people post under their real names on Twitter (although you can make fake names there too), but most of the internet isn't like that and that is okay. I just don't like the way Outside is framing this discussion in the article. Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
I have been thinking about the reddit angle. Why do anonymous usernames work over there? Here are my insights:
1. Everyone on reddit has to create an account to post. Yes, you can create multiple accounts very quickly, but that is covered in point #2.
2. The things new reddit accounts can do are significantly restricted. It makes it so you can't post frequently, often needing 10+ minutes between posts. Some forums don't even allow new accounts to post. So in theory you could create many reddit accounts to spam, but the investment of energy to get allow each account to become fully functional deters people from doing this. People may have multiple accounts, but in practice each account is one they hold onto for a while. People's tendency to spam and hide behind multiple usernames is greatly diminished. The continuity of accounts, and the ability to see the type of things each account is posting from the moment it was created. Those two things enforce a type of increased accountability that is pretty ingenius from a site that allows anonymous posting. Reddit had a problem with user accountability and they have largely solved it, because they thought about how to fix it and they did it.
3. Reddit has upvoting and downvoting. Each post can be upvoted or downvoted by users, and a comment's vote total determines how visible it is. In theory, downvoting is meant to be reserved for things that don't contribute to the conversation. In practice, the downvote button also serves to turn the volume down on comments that are problematic. On letsrun, every comment in every thread receives equal attention.
4. Reddit has mods for each subreddit. There is an auto-mod function, but subreddits function so well as ecosystems because of active mods. There is so much more moderation there. Each subreddit has a few devoted moderators that enforce the standards of that particular subreddit, not reddit as a whole. There are also reddit-wide rules that moderators enforce.
In summary, reddit has the same types of issues as letsrun, but they have a much more sophisticated system for dealing with them, one that admits they are a problem. I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
1) There's a lot here; I'll try to respond to all your points. First of all, I love Reddit, so you don't have to sell me on all the things that are great about it. I have actually been saying for years that we should implement some of the features that work so well there on LetsRun. Things like being able to see yours and other users' post history, getting notified when someone replies to your post or posts in a thread you are following, etc. These are just standard good features most online forums have. A lot of improvements have already been made recently to the boards and more are coming:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=97760712) Your entire point in #2 is exactly how the discussion should be framed. I'd have no problem if the Outside magazine guy wrote all that and discussed the pros and cons of registration. But he didn't. I don't know if he was being disingenuous or if he's just misinformed, but if you're ignorant on how online message boards work and you read his piece, you'd think LetsRun was treading into some new controversial territory because you don't have to use your real name to post. Just read this line, "The adult men sulking in their mother’s basements would probably be less inclined to troll the Mary Cains of the world if they actually had to own up to it." It's absurd. If registration was mandatory and you had to verify your email address (something not even Reddit forces you to do), you could still post something mean about Cain, Rupp, Rojo, or whoever, without anyone knowing who you were. Even on Twitter, you can make a fake name and post whatever you want without ever risking revealing your real world identity. That was my main problem with the way he approached the topic.
3) I do not believe the Reddit voting system would work well for LetsRun. If you frequent Reddit, you know that the upvote/downvote system is often used as a "I agree" or "I disagree" button. That wouldn't be productive on LetsRun. Also, LetsRun's threads are an ongoing conversation that you follow from start to finish so it's a very different format than Reddit. All that said, I still think some kind of karma system could work on LetsRun. Maybe if you get too many negative points, your account is flagged and reviewed by a moderator. Maybe accounts with a lot of positive points get special designation (like a symbol under your username or whatever). I'm just brainstorming and not speaking for all of LetsRun, just saying I personally could see something like that working here eventually.
4) I mean, aren't you essentially describing what would be a LetsRun subreddit? We have an auto-mod function, we have a few devoted moderators and rules that are enforced. I'm not sure what you're saying with this point. We're
obviously nowhere near as big as Reddit; much closer in size/scope to a sub reddit.
I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
I hope you aren't implying that we're being lazy rather than deal with issues. We've addressed moderation concerns and made huge improvements over the years, with some of the biggest ones coming recently. Weldon and Robert have started threads asking the community how they think we should handle certain controversial topics like women's eating disorders for example. We answer tons of emails and even phone calls about specific threads that require attention. So there has certainly been a lot of effort in this area. That said, we are against censorship and never want users to feel like they can't discuss issues like whether an athlete is doping for example.
What about when Kenyan are doping or Ethiopeans have coaches running a little doping clinic in his hotel room? Is THAT racism too?
reddit user wrote:
Soprano wrote:
One thing I want to address from the article because I see it get brought up all the time, is the whole concept of anonymity on the internet. The article says:
I just think the discussion is being framed in a pretty ridiculous way. It's pretending like LetsRun.com is some outlier because users can post anonymously. The whole discussion about registration is one thing, but the fact is on most online forums, you are anonymous. I post on Reddit all the time and am 100% anonymous; no one will ever know who I am. All you need to sign up and start posting is a username. They make you input an email address, but you don't have to verify it to post so it doesn't even need to be a real email. Just as a test I signed up with an account under the email
fake123@fake.comand was able to register and post. Took about 30 seconds.
I realize that a lot of people post under their real names on Twitter (although you can make fake names there too), but most of the internet isn't like that and that is okay. I just don't like the way Outside is framing this discussion in the article. Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
I have been thinking about the reddit angle. Why do anonymous usernames work over there? Here are my insights:
1. Everyone on reddit has to create an account to post. Yes, you can create multiple accounts very quickly, but that is covered in point #2.
2. The things new reddit accounts can do are significantly restricted. It makes it so you can't post frequently, often needing 10+ minutes between posts. Some forums don't even allow new accounts to post. So in theory you could create many reddit accounts to spam, but the investment of energy to get allow each account to become fully functional deters people from doing this. People may have multiple accounts, but in practice each account is one they hold onto for a while. People's tendency to spam and hide behind multiple usernames is greatly diminished. The continuity of accounts, and the ability to see the type of things each account is posting from the moment it was created. Those two things enforce a type of increased accountability that is pretty ingenius from a site that allows anonymous posting. Reddit had a problem with user accountability and they have largely solved it, because they thought about how to fix it and they did it.
3. Reddit has upvoting and downvoting. Each post can be upvoted or downvoted by users, and a comment's vote total determines how visible it is. In theory, downvoting is meant to be reserved for things that don't contribute to the conversation. In practice, the downvote button also serves to turn the volume down on comments that are problematic. On letsrun, every comment in every thread receives equal attention.
4. Reddit has mods for each subreddit. There is an auto-mod function, but subreddits function so well as ecosystems because of active mods. There is so much more moderation there. Each subreddit has a few devoted moderators that enforce the standards of that particular subreddit, not reddit as a whole. There are also reddit-wide rules that moderators enforce.
In summary, reddit has the same types of issues as letsrun, but they have a much more sophisticated system for dealing with them, one that admits they are a problem. I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
the thing with reddit is while it does a decent job of deterring trolls it also has a lot of hive-minded ideology. people are quick to downvote things they just disagree with that isn't necessarily a troll post.
take r/politicalhumor for example. god forbid you post anything pro conservative or you get people that start commenting "got a source on that" looking to get into a debate on a humor subreddit or "right cant meme" even though the post may very well be funny. Or if you look at any sports subreddit, you could get people who say the titans will beat the ravens this week in the playoffs and they get downvoted because everyone is all for the ravens being the best team ever and lamar jackson is literally jesus if he played football.
there are also examples with the running subreddits where if you say something about a different training philosophy than what the consensus does then people get mad, downvote away and thats the end of it even if it was a valid point.
So while reddit deters trolls better than letsrun it also encourages group thinking and deters different opinions on things more than letsrun
I wasn't asking you to implement a letsrun Reddit experience. I was responding to your flippancy that "reddit allows anonymity so why shouldn't we" with all the systems they have in place to make it a good, engaging, clean experience.
We could nitpick reddit, and talk about things you HAVE done in the moderation arena. But the point is that there is tons of recurring feedback that isn't acted on. So what's the point in shitting on reddit? It is just an example of a more robust system of moderation. So to say you don't want to implement a reddit-style interface is fine, and to tout that the moderation activities that have begun to improve is fine, but at the end of the day...people are still complaining about their experience on this site. So these discussions seem more like a distraction, or a way to address individual concerns while ignoring the big picture.
A lot of people come to this forum IN SPITE of the problems that come up over and over, not because of them. This site is resting on its laurels instead of evolving. That's not a complaint, that's a warning.
And no, I do not mean to imply any individuals in the company are being lazy when it comes to moderation. I think letsrun does not have adequate human resources to effectively moderate using the system they have. Big popular platforms have entire moderation departments. It usually doesn't pull the company's top brass into the fold so often.
reddit user wrote:
And no, I do not mean to imply any individuals in the company are being lazy when it comes to moderation. I think letsrun does not have adequate human resources to effectively moderate using the system they have. Big popular platforms have entire moderation departments. It usually doesn't pull the company's top brass into the fold so often.
They also have diversity on the moderation teams. And some published standards. And they consult with experts.
All of which have been suggested and rebuffed.
Article was ok. I wish I had known the angle it was going to take so I could have addressed some of the concerns. Moderation isn't easy and I think we continue to do a better job with it but people clearly have had their feelings hurt on here and there are no doubt inappropriate posts on here. I think the real question is how quickly do we delete them.
We made improvements on our back end this month to make it so you all could report posts without even leaving the page.
I take it for granted I'm going to read stuff on here I don't agree with or find offensive from time to time. Certain stuff crosses a line that needs to deleted. We delete hundreds of thousands of posts and ban tons of users. As I said above I think the real question is how quickly are the posts deleted.
I think we're getting better at this.
I wish the article had outlined exactly what we do to moderate. It had this line "While Johnson claims that it is impossible for the site’s modest staff to monitor everything that goes up on the message boards " which could give the impression to the uninformed we don't have people monitoring the site.
If it had said something like this I'd have liked it better
"While Johnson says LetsRun.com does not pre-screen content or claim to read every post (there have been nearly 10 million posts since the site was founded in 2000), he points out that, every post reported as offensive is ready by a human moderator, there are methods in place to automatically delete posts reported as offensive by a trivial amount of people, and unlike with behemoths like Facebook and Twitter there are ways to call and email and reach the LetsRun.com staff with complaints."
Once again I urge people if you have a post you do not like use the report a post button (or email us).
I'm all for free flowing discussion and sports fans being sports fans, but we want it to be as civil and respectful as possible. Often it's not and when it crosses a line we need to clean it up quicker.