How is it possible that some people can train very hard and never improve their performances?

1500 Guy wrote:

Hey Depressed.

The day i turned 13 my pb's were 2:05.88/800m and 4:19.6/1500m. The day i turned 18 my pb's were 2:02.20 and 4:07.3, ive had the same troubles, trained all throughout those five years with some injuries as well. i figured you just gotta keep workin and your time will come. it might not mean your good as a junior but the time will come eventually. maybe even when your 25/26. just believe in yourself.

Thanks for the encouragement. Likewise I hope you can see some progression. At the least you're already at 2:02. That's very good. If you heard my 800 time, you'd laugh, and I wouldn't blame you.

alright man, no more fishing for attention. first of all, evaluate why you are in this sport. are you looking to improve for yourself, or are you doing it for external reasons? i read these comments from so many young runners on this board. you all don't realize that this sport is about the long term, there will be ups and downs. but you know what, that is life. it is your attitude and self esteem that will carry you through this. there's no way that you've tried everything or even stuck with anything for long enough to make those remarks. you can't be so high strung and train at a high level, your body will break. your mind leads your body.

when i was a freshman id run 40mpw. i got injured every year of high school and never ran as much as i did freshamn year. my 800 pr frosh year was 2:12. i ran 1:53 sr year.

depressed wrote:

jaguar1 wrote:

Have you ever had a growth spurt? If so, when?

I dont really know. I was about 5'1" at age 14 and now at age 18 I'm about 5'7"....

Ok, wow, that is a growth spurt! Here's an idea.... your bones grews, and your muscles are still not done catching up. Therefore, you've got an imbalance that exists. Developmentally, your body is not ready to handle the demands of high intensity and/or high mileage, as evidenced by the numerous injuries you've suffered. My guess is you've still got a few more years until your body is fully developed and strong!

Just to give you an idea.... I had a huge growth spurt between my freshman/sophomore years (4 inches); I ran phenomenally my soph. year on the track, and went into cross country my junior year running the best I had ever run. However, between the ages of 16-19, I suffered 7 stress fractures as well as countless other chronic pains. It wasn't until last year (at the age of 22) that I finally started "performing" again, something I hadn't done since I was 16. My body feels the strongest it's ever felt.... I feel more complete/balanced. I'm running monster PRs at the moment, but I'm thinking longterm as well.

Seriously, give yourself time! Do you think you're actually going to be running the best times of your life at the age of 19?! Developmentally, you're probably not balanced. Stay patient, understand the importance of aerobic development (a buildup of lots of easy miles) and the purpose of speed training (improve VO2, lactate threshold, and overall efficiency/economy). You're going to be ok! :)

I have some thoughts on your situation. First, let me say that everybody is different. Just because an elite runner gets better off of 140 miles per week does not mean that you will. One of the things that makes a runner elite is the ability to tolerate (and improve from) high workloads. When I was in 8th grade, I could not break 8 minutes for the mile. When I was in 10th grade, I could run 20:30 for 3 miles on a cross country course. By the time I was a senior in HS, I ran 4:47 for 1600 and 10:27 for 3200. By the time I was 20, I could run a 15:48 5k (running on my own--I wasn't good enough to be competitive at the collegiate level.) I'm now 31, and I spent my 20s running competitively in (and occasionally winning) local road races. I will never be an elite runner, but I learned a few lessons over the years.I was highly motivated. I went through extended periods of training very hard without improvement. I'd try everything: lots of long slow running, lots of long fast running, high mileage with no intervals, high mileage with lots of intervals, and everything in between. The story was the same: when my mileage got much above 50 per week, my performances would decline. And when, in the interest of consistency, I would stick with it for months at a time, my race times would continue to deteriorate.I will tell you what training guidelines produced the best performances for me at race distances of 1 to 10 miles. These "don'ts" are going to sound *very* wimpy, but it's what worked for me:--Don't exceed 50 miles per week (I ran some of my best times off of little as 30 miles per week)--Don't run every day; take at least one day off per week--Don't ignore basic leg speed, even in the "conditioning" phase. Spend at least one day a week doing strides and short sprints.--Don't do killer workouts. Save the all-out efforts for races--Don't do all of your runs on pavement--Don't do long runs of over 90 minutes.--Don't get too attached to your schedule: if you feel good and it's supposed to be an "easy" day, pick up the pace; if you feel terrible on a "hard" day, just do an easy run.--Don't be too obsessive about your running. Keep your running in perspective; you are not going to the Olympics.I imagine a lot of people on this board would say that I am dooming you to a career of mediocrity. But you aren't trying to break 13:20 for 5K; you are trying to break 17:30. Try training fewer miles, with no super-hard workouts, no real long runs, one day off per week, and with a focus on improving your basic leg speed through low volume stride/sprint workouts. See what happens.Best of luck,Brent

depressed wrote:

I've been very injury prone throughout high school from training too hard. I'm a small guy but would do 50-60 miles per week in the middle of the winter with intervals, hills, speed, even when coming back from recent injuries. Stress fractures, tendonitis, I've had it all. Now I'll be in college and I am trying to do it intelligently for once. But it seems even during those rare periods where I would train correctly, times and progression never improved. I ran 19-flat in 8th grade with almost no training and, 5 years later, I am high-17. That's paltry improvement for the training that's been done.

Has anyone had a similar problem and, hopefully, how did you break out of your stagnation?

Brent wrote:

I imagine a lot of people on this board would say that I am dooming you to a career of mediocrity. But you aren't trying to break 13:20 for 5K; you are trying to break 17:30. Try training fewer miles, with no super-hard workouts, no real long runs, one day off per week, and with a focus on improving your basic leg speed through low volume stride/sprint workouts. See what happens.

With that advice, you would be dooming him to mediocrity. You have no idea what he can run for 5,000. Kip Keino didn't break 5:00 for the mile until he was 20. Running 13:20 is something that has been done by less than 1,000 people ever. Very few people in the world, if anyone, can hope to run 13:20. But one shouldn't place limits on oneself.

At least now he's healthy. The first key to improvement is health. You can't run faster if you can't run at all. Doing under 50 per week and taking days off is the last thing someone should do who is trying to improve.

Yikes! Dooming him to mediocrity.... a 19 year old who has never trained consistently?! Good gosh, who knows what this guy's potential is with a few years of consistent training!

Have you thought that maybe the reason your performances decline when you get over 50 miles/week is because you're not running your easy days easy enough to allow for proper aerobic development and rest/recovery? I constantly see "highly motivated" teens/20 something's hauling ass day after day.... yet when it comes to race day, they underperform due to underdeveloped aerobic systems! They train so hard every day that they're frequently forced to take a day off because they're so tired and burned out. Wait, I was once one of these runners!

I used to hit 50-60 miles/week, and over time I would see a decline in performance and eventually end up injured. It happened every time I got to this "breaking point." So, I slowed down the pace on my easy days, switched to light flats, and easily could handle 70, 80+ miles/week consistently. As a result, my times have dropped drastically the past year due to a better developed aerobic system. I also used to take a day off each week. Now I balance a long run on Sunday with a shorter, easy run on Monday. I feel much better running every day, something I never thought was possible in the past when I hauled ass.

It's all a balance between hard days and easy days....properly training the different energy systems. Each run has a purpose. What do you get from picking up the pace on an easy day? Absolutely nothing! I believe Jack Daniel's refers to this zone as "No man's land." You figure out which days work best for hard workouts, and you prepare for these days. You plan for them just like you plan for a race. The day after a hard day is for recovery. No long run over 90 min.?! Wha?! Do you know what the purpose of a long run is?! Take at least one day off per week?! You shouldn't plan for a day off each week; only take a day off when the body whole-heartedly demands it. If you find you're so tired each week you "have to" take a day off, you don't have the right balance between hard days and easy days.

The 5K is 90% aerobic, meaning lots of easy miles is what is carrying you. This runner clearly is underdeveloped aerobically due to inconsistent training and needs to speed more time developing a large aerobic base.... just running relaxed and comfortably.

It is good to read your story. I am actually 18, if it matters.

I have begun doing what you suggested above in the past 6 weeks since returning from injury. Very, very easy pace (sometimes beginning the runs as slow as 9:30 for the first mile, which is embarassing).

Perhaps there are some encouraging signs, though, as today I did a 12 mile run with the last few miles accelerated down faster to LT pace. I checked the pace on the track and found I was going 5:55-6:10 pace, which is much faster than I have ever gone at tempo pace and still felt relaxed.

The week was 70 miles and most of it was easy.

The only problem has been that I am having a bit of the same irritation on my left foot (low in the heel bone under the Achilles tendon) that I had in the previously injured right foot.

I don't know if this is a function of the flats or something else. It seems only to come when doing moderate paced aerobic running; easy paces and strides do not bother it. I thought I was transitioning quite gradually to flats with a lot of exercises and drills, plus I was out for 3 months before so I went from no running to running in flats as opposed to running a lot in trainers to running a lot in flats. Hopefully it goes away soon.

Thanks to everyone who has replied on the thread. Your advice and encouragement is very much appreciated.

Try Hadd.

snatch wrote:

Try Hadd.

Doesn't work for 18 year old kids. Dude's pointing for a mile or a 5K, not a marathon.

I can't believe this is probably the same guy that told the heroic snow shovelling story on the lengths you have gone to to get your workout in. Now he's asking what went wrong after telling us how to do it.

Hawkeye wrote:

I can't believe this is probably the same guy that told the heroic snow shovelling story on the lengths you have gone to to get your workout in. Now he's asking what went wrong after telling us how to do it.

Translate into English, por favor. What the heck are you saying?

depressed wrote:

The only problem has been that I am having a bit of the same irritation on my left foot (low in the heel bone under the Achilles tendon) that I had in the previously injured right foot.

Sure, there's more stretch on the Achilles while wearing a shoe with less heel lift, but I think a greater contributor to Achilles soreness is the heel counter of the shoe pulling down on the Achilles as you push off. I used to counter this occassional soreness with some barefoot running (which does work), but the best solution was to stop wearing socks. I stopped wearing socks back in Dec., and although, yes, I have to deal with the occassional blister, I find that the more "sock-like" fit of the shoes feels better overall.

So yes, I do believe such a problem can be contributed to the shoes, but just find a solutions (barefoot running, no socks!) that helps alleviate the soreness.:)

I stopped wearing socks when I saw it advised on another post. I was wondering about the heel counter. I tried on another pair of shoes that were old and useless to cut out the counter with a pair of scissors and succeeded in ripping up the back of the shoe without taking out the heel counter. I wear Puma H Streets and the shoe I am transitioning from, and consequently still wear a little (for example, on a 90 minute run, the first 30 minutes are in this shoe. Gradually the higher heeled shoe is phased out) is the New Balance 765. The other flat is the New Balance RC150. Both NB shoes, along with the NB900's that I have, have heel counters. I'm not sure if this is the cause. It never seems to be an issue while running barefoot, but I can feel it if I am running barefoot after having used one of the NB shoes. I also only usually get the soreness with tempo paced running, which is a problem because I need to spend a good deal of time in that zone. So I suppose I need to do a search to find out to cut out the heel counter without destroying the back of the shoe.

No Problemo. A guy came on here a few months ago and asked what lengths we have gone to in order to get a workout in . You with me so far? He then told a story of needing to do a session which required a track surface to complete satisfactorily. Naturally this involved rising from his deathbed and shovelling 6-30 inches of snow off a track. By this point he was vomiting, his back was dislocated, yet he still achieved his goal of getting that crucial carreer altering workout in. The results can't be argued with. Sometimes you are better off staying in bed....or in school.

your hormones may be off whack

not producing enough testosterone?

depressed wrote:

....but I can feel it if I am running barefoot after having used one of the NB shoes. I also only usually get the soreness with tempo paced running, which is a problem because I need to spend a good deal of time in that zone. So I suppose I need to do a search to find out to cut out the heel counter without destroying the back of the shoe.

Definitely, if you're finding an association between the Achilles pain and a certain pair of shoes, you should stop subjecting yourself to this repeated "stress." Considering the varying heel heights of the shoes you mentioned, this constant stretching/tightening of the Achilles is probably a cause of your current soreness. I've read a lot about people having problems with the heel counter on trainers (can pinch the Achilles if you plantar flex your foot, like during the takeoff phase); fortunately, this isn't a problem with the Puma H Streets! Just find a solution that works and stick with it. If something gets sore/tight, just change something or run very easy barefoot!

Listen depressed, i basically went thru a similar experience for about a year. By the end of 7th grade i was down to a 5:03 mile and set about breaking 5 in 8th grade, a task that had never been accomplished in my town. It was all that i thought about every single day, breaking 5. I trained harder then i ever had in my life, and that next spring i busted my pr by 3 whole seconds. Didnt even break 5. I thought about what had gone wrong but i couldent come up with anything. Then it hit me, i had been training and focusing on the task far to hard. I never took days off, sometimes going for 100 days strait beetween off days.

Well soon after i discoverd my problem I simply stopped carring as much as I had. I mean I still ran up to 70 mile weeks, but each week i took a day off. And instead of sitting at home on Friday nights thinking of running, i went out and had fun. Mentally I was much more prepared for this previous track season. At the district meet this year i clocked a 4:41 and a 10:06 as a sophmore, not incredible times but much better then i had been running. Now im getting ready for cross country, and using the same strategy im already down below 16:15, a goal i used to never dream about.

That is roughly what worked for me. I have 3 rest days a week and have improved quite a bit.