14:47 for a 14 year old

Puffer is 15 now. Born 19 May 2004. He ran the 14:47 on 18 Apr 2019.

Alabama BSS wrote:

Tinman: I respect your coaching. I respect your ideas. However, it seems that 50+ miles per week for a 14 yr old is extreme. If he runs 5 days per week, one rest day and one cross training day then that is at least 9+ miles per day. What is going to do when he is 17? 90 miles per week? How is the improvement going to come? Won’t the chances of injury be very high?

Asking not as criticism but more so of what is the long term plan?

1) He is 15 now. So as 15-year old, he is running 50-60 mpw.

2) He can increase mpw by 10-15 every year from now on and reach around 80-90 as senior.

3) His fitness level is very high for a 15-year old. High VO2MAX, good threshold. He can handle 50-60 mpw, as long as they are on grass, dirt trails and tracks. He can handle even more aerobic volume, which he is getting from cross-training.

Injuries would be a problem if he would pound every day on pavement OR run his easy days very fast like many HS kids do. He runs them between 6:40 (good day) and 8:00 (tired), which is appropriate for someone able to run 9 min in the 2-mile.

I suggest it is important to keep in mind a runner’s background greatly influences how much he or she can handle the present training prescription. If somebody didn’t run before they entered high school, 30 miles per week might be about as much as they should run there first xc season. But, Aidan’s run six years; so, he’s not a beginner. His progression has been gradual over the years. A year ago he was probably averaging low 40s per week. The year before that probably low 30s miles per week. The year before that he was in the 20s as an average per week. It’s really been a gradual progression for him. Now, he’s a sophomore in high school, so his current volume is not a shock at all.

Should we tell 15-year-old Kenyan and Ethiopians that they shouldn’t run more than 50 miles per week? Most of those kids are running more than that, and we revere them for their exploits by time they are 16-19 years old. They become world-class runners, and we see them in the Olympics winning medals at 20-21 years old. Some of them remain at high levels for several years thereafter or improve. Are we to say that they did it wrong? It’s all about progression, starting small and gradually building over time. And, another thing to keep in mind is I don’t prescribe hard anaerobic capacity workouts to young athletes like fast 400 m repeats with short recoveries. *CV intervals are highly aerobic, very tolerable, and about half an hour racing speed; about 95-96% aerobic.

The beauty of running around CV or threshold workouts is they replaces high mileage. A work out of 6×1 km at CV or 4-5 x 1-mile at threshold is the equivalent of 9-12 mile distance runs in terms of aerobic development but with less total pounding, better mechanics, and it is invigorating for the athlete.

Thanks so much tinman, very appreciative. Last question. Is he doing a Tempo each week or just another CV? If so a Tempo what structure is that workout? Thanks again, runnerrunner100. ;)

Tinman wrote:

The beauty of running around CV or threshold workouts is they replaces high mileage. A work out of 6×1 km at CV or 4-5 x 1-mile at threshold is the equivalent of 9-12 mile distance runs in terms of aerobic development but with less total pounding, better mechanics, and it is invigorating for the athlete.

That doesn't make sense. A classic CV workout, including a PROPER warm-up, maybe some drills for some runners, and a long, easy cool down SHOULD be 10-12 miles long for a 9 flat 3200 and 14:30 5k runner. In a 6x1k@CV+5x200 workout, which is 7200m+2000m=9200m of quality+rest, Puffer should be able to handle a WU and CD of about 3000-4000m each EASILY (on 8 min miles, he would take 15-20 min for WU and CD). So we are looking at a total workout volume of 15200-17200m, or roughly 9-12 miles.

Now running a CV workout with 9-12 miles in total IS more pounding and stress than a standard 9-12 mile distance run.

CV workouts are incredibly effective, but they do NOT replace distance runs / easy mileage, and neither are they similar in stress. They work the anaerobic threshold MUCH better than distance runs, and the aerobic threshold around the same. But they are higher stress and do take some time to recover, otherwise everyone could just do CV intervals every day since they are so effective.

Also it's very easy to do them too fast, especially if it is a guy with a lot of basic speed (neither Hunter nor Puffer are overly talented in raw speed, but prescribe a CV workout to someone like Mamede and there is a big risk he will do it too fast. Each HS team probably has some speedsters that might do them too fast, and miss the stimulus for long-term development because they are running them at their 5k or even VO2MAX pace instead. Works well for 6-10 weeks, they improve a lot immediately but then tada! - peak early, under-perform in key races and fall back to the level they were previously without improving much in the long-term.

I don't think there is anything better to build fitness gradually than doing proper CV and threshold workouts week after week, but they need to be done correctly at the right pace and in the right volume that's appropriate for the runner.

This is great. Now LateRunnerPhil is such an expert on Tinman's training approach that he's correcting Tinman.

Question:

Thanks so much tinman, very appreciative. Last question. Is he doing a Tempo each week or just another CV? If so a Tempo what structure is that workout? Thanks again, runnerrunner100. ;)

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Response:

I seldom prescribe tempo runs for 5k runners in competitive mode. Aidan, like the other top high school athletes I coach, runs one CV type workout per week during most parts of the years (off-season and in-season). Occasionally during the competitive (in) season I assign fartlek or interval workout at roughly 3k effort. I caution coaches to not over-prescribe VO2max focused workouts. This is especially true relevant for high school athletes who already race 1-2 times per week. VO2max workout may induce rapid results, but the long-term effect is not good for athletes. I follow the premise that patience is a virtue. Assigning hammerfest workouts may generate great results for about 4-6 weeks during a given season, but the wheels can fall off if you are not careful. Furthermore, the impact of too many intense workouts in high school can result in reduced success as a collegiate running.

All CV workouts (intended to develop highly sustainable aerobic ability) conclude with short quality (hills or flat ground running or both). I've preferred this strategy since 1989 and have found it keeps alive short-term speed and power.

Tinman wrote:

The Northeast winters make this practice difficult to manage, however. since virtually no grass is available to run on where he lives.

There is no better place in the Northeast to train on grass than Wickham Park which is located right in his hometown.

frackenstein wrote:

This is great. Now LateRunnerPhil is such an expert on Tinman's training approach that he's correcting Tinman.

+1

Is a 6 x 1k cv workout equivalent aerobically to 9 to 12 miles distance run because average heart rate for the session is similar? Less pounding because of the change in stride mechanics between 1ks and recoveries? Stride mechanics of the 1ks similar to race stride mechanics so a neuromuscular benefit there?

Dr. Vigil would disagree. Especially if the goal is long term development. Most of the Ethiopians and Kenyans don't have careers in their late twenties do the sheer volume of running placed on their bodies at a young age. If Aidan wants to have a career similar to Nick Willis, I suggest not progressing his volume into the 70's during his high school career but rather slowly bump the neede of intensity on key workouts OR lengthen the amount of time on threshold runs because as we all know, that is the ultimate marker to endurance performance

Dr. Vigil introduces me to people as a “brilliant sports scientist,” so I think he would argue that I probably know more about scientific nuances than most people.

Mileage is a poor indicator of training stress without identifying relative training intensity. For example, Grant Fischer was “only running 50 miles per week” as a senior in high school. His slow days were 6:00 pace or faster, while Drew Hunter typically ran in the 60-70 per week as a senior. His slow days were run at 7:15 per mile. Grant ran more hard workouts than Drew too. So, who was training harder? If you assume that mileage is the main indicator of stress then you would say Drew was training harder, and you would be wrong. Their training was about the same total stress for any measured timeframe.

Tinman wrote:

Dr. Vigil introduces me to people as a “brilliant sports scientist,” so I think he would argue that I probably know more about scientific nuances than most people.

Mileage is a poor indicator of training stress without identifying relative training intensity. For example, Grant Fischer was “only running 50 miles per week” as a senior in high school. His slow days were 6:00 pace or faster, while Drew Hunter typically ran in the 60-70 per week as a senior. His slow days were run at 7:15 per mile. Grant ran more hard workouts than Drew too. So, who was training harder? If you assume that mileage is the main indicator of stress then you would say Drew was training harder, and you would be wrong. Their training was about the same total stress for any measured timeframe.

You're a piece of work. Stop with the Drew Hunter did it, so everyone should do it. This is the biggest reason you're a terrible coach. You don't know how to actually coach an athletes.

Dr Vigil also said at a clinic in San Diego years back his guys team at Adams State had 5 guys break four minutes in the mile in practice at 7500ft during mile repeats as the school record was 4:01 at the time. Along with saying his athlete at Adams State ran 3;54 at Pre as he was at Adams State. He forgot Shane Healey did this as a professional athlete years after Adams. And we all know those guys did not break 4min in the mile in a 6xmile workout. The list goes on with Dr Vigil. Nice guy, but his story' are out there and he is just getting old. I have a hunch he was being nice introducing you as "“brilliant sports scientist,". Get over yourself and actually coach. Anyone can spit out data they control. I know High School coaches with more coaching knowledge then Tinman!

Most good HS programs don't race 1-2 times a week. The ones that do that use their races as workouts from what I have seen. You can't expect to run a 4:20 mile and never run under 65 sec 400's in practice.

Coach, we appreciate your contributing to this thread. It's fair enough to engage in debate here but ignore the know-nothings. Your results speak for themselves. You've helped a lot of athletes to get onto the national scene at high school and above with highly effective training that doesn't break them down as much as most hs training programs. Injuries are so common at the hs level that it is the rare athlete that even makes it a season without injury. I got injuries every ten days or so in hs and college, most of which was on very low mileage, and I only developed decades later when I had learned about injury prevention exercises. If high mileage were the source of injuries, how would you explain a young man getting constant injuries on 20-40 mpw, with not that much intensity, and then decades later doing 100-115 mpw with relatively few injuries (I made it through years of that before recurrent calf injuries that I have not solved but sometimes been able to defer long enough to get in some good races)?

zvcxvxc wrote:

Coach, we appreciate your contributing to this thread. It's fair enough to engage in debate here but ignore the know-nothings. Your results speak for themselves. You've helped a lot of athletes to get onto the national scene at high school and above with highly effective training that doesn't break them down as much as most hs training programs.

+1 . That duffer a few posts ago is not worthy of your free training input Please know that for every doofus like him there are likely 10 times the number who value your contributions greatly. And yes, I know from 1st hand experience that Tinman's approach works wonders with national class HS runners.

you misunderstand, that's his track 5k time

I wonder what Bekele's PBs were when he was 14.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

[quote]frackenstein wrote:

This is great. Now LateRunnerPhil is such an expert on Tinman's training approach that he's correcting Tinman.

+1

Is a 6 x 1k cv workout equivalent aerobically to 9 to 12 miles distance run because average heart rate for the session is similar? Less pounding because of the change in stride mechanics between 1ks and recoveries? Stride mechanics of the 1ks similar to race stride mechanics so a neuromuscular benefit there

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6 x 1km @ critical velocity provides the same fitness enhancement benefit as a typical 9-12 mile distance run at ~1:30-2:00 per mile slower than 5k pace.

A critical velocity workout requires much more power than the distance run; thus glutes and other muscles are active at a higher level of engagement than during a distance run.

Biomechanics of a critical velocity workout resemble short distance racing technique than long distance running.

beware of doofuses wrote:

zvcxvxc wrote:

Coach, we appreciate your contributing to this thread. It's fair enough to engage in debate here but ignore the know-nothings. Your results speak for themselves. You've helped a lot of athletes to get onto the national scene at high school and above with highly effective training that doesn't break them down as much as most hs training programs.

+1 . That duffer a few posts ago is not worthy of your free training input Please know that for every doofus like him there are likely 10 times the number who value your contributions greatly. And yes, I know from 1st hand experience that Tinman's approach works wonders with national class HS runners.

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Jealousy and selfishness are not admirable characteristics of humans!