Oooooo this is gonna be fun. Can't wait to see how far they'll take this.
*Gets into talk to jebus formation*
"Thanks for the Salazar drama big guy and yes that's a great idea to give them all real asthma next week... but we just gotta see hobby joggers buying 1000$ shoes before 2025. Please please please. A man."
shoot dood wrote:
at this point just drive behind him with a fan the whole way why not
Well it does bring up a good point. It doesn't seem like much has changed from Breaking2. Possibly better weather. So, if the only real tangible difference is the pair of shoes.. then it sounds very much like the human is limited, so you have to start using better equipment. And to that end, you might as well run downhill with a fan pushing you.
And look, I'm all for better equipment and methods, but at this point (if these are the new shoes), it seems like a really expensive shoe lab experiment for Nike, more than a test for kipchoge. Nike has to be loving this.. this is about as good as it gets for testing grounds for a new product.
This is all assuming he shows up with these on. I've seen people wear testing this shoe at CIM, LA Marathon and other west coast races for a year now, but no elite has used them in competition yet to my knowledge. Kipchoge has been using them for a long time as well, but still raced in the standard Vaporfly Elite/Next.
rojo wrote:
As the event approaches, I had two thoughts.
1) Are they going to be letting him draft off a car with a huge scoreboard on top of it like last time as experts thought it made a big difference?
2) Are they going to be using an even newer and improved version of cheaterflies that will let him run26 seconds faster?
The answer appears to be yes and yes.
Here is a pic from the test event of the car.
https://res.cloudinary.com/project-159/image/upload/w_1200/v1567424030/s8wtxrjuio1u6fi7njnv.jpgAnd Jonathan Gault shared this with me from twitter:
https://twitter.com/Crazie_Daizee/status/1181950225516302336
The car had very little effect. Your evil twin even wrote about it:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8223161Why are these things legal, but the Spira shoes are banned? I see no difference at this point.
Gravvvy wrote:
Why are these things legal, but the Spira shoes are banned?
They're not.
As far as the drafting from the car, any cyclist will tell you that they are not close enough to the car to get any significant benefit from it. They would need to be running like 2 feet behind the bumper, which they aren't. The energy savings from drafting is all coming from the pacers in front of Kipchoge.
Not surprised about the shoes -- just another iteration. I'd be very surprised if the forefoot pods had some sort of liquid in them. No matter what liquid they used, it would certainly weigh more than foam/zoom whatever. I think part of the reason for the design update is not they the shoes will be any faster than the current Next%; the new shoes are all about the forefoot cushioning and getting a more efficient bounce. Plus the new pods things will probably prolong the working life of the shoes (as everyone knows the current gen can feel significantly less exciting after 100-130 of hard miles on them.
lol any cyclist would not tell you that. You still benefit from draft at 5+ metres
Hardloper wrote:
Gravvvy wrote:
Why are these things legal, but the Spira shoes are banned?
They're not.
Oops, you're right. Mods, pls delete thread thx.
locatelli wrote:
lol any cyclist would not tell you that. You still benefit from draft at 5+ metres
At 13 mph, not really. When you double the speed you quadruple the air resistance
He only needs 1 second per mile, compared to last time. Lesser curves will probably be enough to do it. They had that one odd, cone-defined turn at Monza, that's most of your second right there. If he does something crazy, like a minute or so under 2 hours, we'll know the shoes are insane.
Yea running sub 2 in the marathon is "beneath" him
Wildhorse wrote:
It's so sad that such a talented and accomplished marathoner as Kipchoge is compromising his credibility with this contrived vanity project. "No human is limited", sure.
His legacy will be first man to run under 2 hours for the marathon. His official WR will eventually fall and he will be forgotten.
Roger Bannister is still known today, not for being fast, but for being the first man to crack the 4 minute barrier.
Plus, Kipchoge is probably making over a million dollars for these stunts.
Agreed. I don't see how this v3 of the Vaporfly wouldn't count as a spring. Tbh this whole artificial thing disgusts me, and people will celebrate a potential sub 2 marathon despite all unfair advantages.
krakeN wrote:
Agreed. I don't see how this v3 of the Vaporfly wouldn't count as a spring. Tbh this whole artificial thing disgusts me, and people will celebrate a potential sub 2 marathon despite all unfair advantages.
Yes, it's a spring. So is every other running shoe.
BasicPhysics wrote:
Not sure why everyone gets so bent out of shape about advances in shoe technology. If you have any sort of understanding of mechanics/physics you would realize that at the end of the day a shoe is a passive device and does not "give" any energy to a person. Energy is put in, and then you get some percentage back out that is less than 100% of what went in. The advances Nike and other shoe companies have been able to make are simply reducing losses and moving that input to output ratio slightly upward. There is a limit of how far a passive device like this can go... you can't go beyond 100%. All the energy to do the work of running is still coming from the human.
Until shoes start to become active devices with their own form of energy to give to a person (i.e. battery etc.), I'm not sure why people take issue with engineers working hard to improve the energy return efficiency of some foam, rubber, plates, and air pockets. Even a spring is a passive device with an energy return less than 100%, same rules apply. We commonly accept running times ran on a track, which is paved with a passive material designed to maximize energy return like Mondo... but if we do the same thing to shoes it is suddenly impure?
This has always been a thing in sport, the athlete provides the energy by burning calories, and the goal of the "equipment" is to waste as little of it as possible allowing more of it to do work. Let it go.
It's a little more complicated than this. Yes, you can't get energy out of the shoe that you didn't put in. But what's revolutionary about these shoes isn't the efficiency of the energy storage, but the storage capacity. The VF can store significantly more energy than any shoe that has come before. That allows the runner to replace some metabolically costly muscle contractions with passively returned energy from the shoe. At an extreme, you end up with something like the Cheetah blades, which most people acknowledge give bilateral amputees a significant advantage over able bodied athletes.
I agree, however, that the VF is only doing better what other shoes did before. The Adios Boost was also proven to be more economical than competitors' shoes, and it's probably not a coincidence that it was the WR shoe for a while. If we're going to draw a line, I would suggest stack height. If the midsole can be no thicker than, say, an inch, then there's a pretty firm limit to how much energy the shoe can store. It would be easy to enforce and would still allow for innovation within a clearly defined area.
For the last time.... Its not the carbon fiber plate that makes it so responsive and efficient.. The carbon fiber plate ads rigidity and stability to a soft energizing foam. We've gone through this message board after message board. If it was the Carbon Fiber Plate that made the shoe so spectacular, then competing brands would've came out with something just as good or regarded as superior if it was that plain and simple. We'd see the Zoom Fly, Carbon Rocket, Carbon X, Skechers Speed Elite, Brooks Hyperion Elite, Saucony's version, and all of these other carbon fiber models be comparable to the vaporfly. That's not the case. Convince me otherwise. Bet you can't do it without trying to throw insults first lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGtcCeTvtYkCmon now... wrote:
For the last time.... Its not the carbon fiber plate that makes it so responsive and efficient.. The carbon fiber plate ads rigidity and stability to a soft energizing foam. We've gone through this message board after message board. If it was the Carbon Fiber Plate that made the shoe so spectacular, then competing brands would've came out with something just as good or regarded as superior if it was that plain and simple. We'd see the Zoom Fly, Carbon Rocket, Carbon X, Skechers Speed Elite, Brooks Hyperion Elite, Saucony's version, and all of these other carbon fiber models be comparable to the vaporfly. That's not the case. Convince me otherwise. Bet you can't do it without trying to throw insults first lol.
yeah, and everyone is fired up about L-Carnitine....
The truthteller wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGtcCeTvtYkCmon now... wrote:
For the last time.... Its not the carbon fiber plate that makes it so responsive and efficient.. The carbon fiber plate ads rigidity and stability to a soft energizing foam. We've gone through this message board after message board. If it was the Carbon Fiber Plate that made the shoe so spectacular, then competing brands would've came out with something just as good or regarded as superior if it was that plain and simple. We'd see the Zoom Fly, Carbon Rocket, Carbon X, Skechers Speed Elite, Brooks Hyperion Elite, Saucony's version, and all of these other carbon fiber models be comparable to the vaporfly. That's not the case. Convince me otherwise. Bet you can't do it without trying to throw insults first lol.
A foot is not going to flex a carbon fiber plate to that degree. If you do that with the Carbon X, Carbon Rocket, Hyperion Elite, Zoom Fly, ETC. You'll get that same kind of propulsion! There's literally carbon fiber insoles that can cause the same reaction!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LrOgPcg6OcIf that's your argument, then everyone should just run with these insoles in their shoes.
That is one screechingly hideous shoe.
Chicago > No-prizes-for-second-Breaking2
On a serious note, say he gets under 2. In his pogo shoes. Behind a car, and 40-odd pacers. Is anyone seriously going to compare this to Bannister's mile?
Gimme a break. It's a 2 hour ad for one of the UK's biggest polluters.
Early Skechers with cheap carbon insoles from Walmart are 75 percent Cheaterflys.
And the foam is no secret. I'm typing this from about 10 tons of it, it's just 3M.
