There is research out there to support this, but everybody’s mechanics are different, right? Personally, I’ve always worn lightweight shoes w/ a touch of support. But last year went the cushioned route w/ hyperburst razor, beacon, etc. After that experiment I developed a case of piriformis and proximal hamstring injuries I’m still dealing w/ months later. I learned my lesson. There’s also no denying that whole proprioception issue w/ super-cushioned shoes.
wdo wrote:
Frickin struggling wrote:
I have been dealing with a nagging injury now for almost 2 months, and it's completely tanking my training. I was experiencing some general soreness months ago, and so I thought I'd give a particular shoe brand a try that I've never worn before, a brand that is known for being VERY cushy. I was about to build mileage for a marathon, so I thought I could use this shoe for both long and recovery runs. I often rotate shoes out and never have issues, I just splurged on these.
The shoe is indeed extremely comfortable, but I am now struggling with what feels like some INTENSE shin splints that are only getting worse. I have run considerably higher mileage than what I'm running now with minimal injuries historically, so I'm a little baffled. The only thing I can think of is that the addition of this super cushioned shoe is altering my gait? I have to imagine its causing me to heel strike more which I can feel immediately radiate in my tibalis anterior muscle, and maybe that much foam is causing instability at the point my foot is striking?
Anyone experience similar issues with mega-cushioned shoes?
I bought the Hoka Clifton 5 because I liked the Bondi 5 so much, but the Cliftons gave me instant shin splint pain, like in the first few steps even.
When you buy a new kind of running shoe, you need to think of it as a big gamble that might not pay off. If you think of it like 'I'm stuck with these shoes for 400 miles', you can get yourself hurt.
Don't get yourself hurt. You might be fine in some slightly less squishy Hoka model. And sometimes a shoe with an even taller stack height will be less squishy than the Cliftons.
The Hoka Clifton 5 is actually the exact shoe that I'm having these issues with. To your point I'm definitely not about to suffer through 400 miles with these shoes. I don't think I would even be able to.
Another poster asked what I had success in, and that was typically racing flats of all sorts. One of my favs was and still is the Nike Streak and the Saucony Type A flats or whatever they're called.
The original reason for investing in the Hokas wasn't because I was necessarily trying to reinvent the wheel, but I was having some relatively minor aches and pains associated with running a a heavier (for me) weight. Now I'm back down to within 5-10 lbs of my old racing weight, and I feel like the ultra cushion shoes are doing me more harm than good. Interesting to hear about your shin splits with the same model. ....I might be demoting these shoes to kicking around the house, and go back to something closer to flats.
I've found that rotating my line of shoes is very helpful. I do the bulk of my training in a more cushioned shoe, but I still do a fairly decent amount of easy miles in minimalist shoes. The minimalist shoes seem to help work different muscles. However, there's no way my feet and legs would be able to handle 100% of training in minimalist shoes.
I also got knee issues with my Cliftons. Dropped them and went back to regular shoes.
My Nike Next% seem to be okay though. Don't run in them daily like I did the Cliftons.
Cush hurts my hips and ITB. Minimal hurts my heals. Rotate.
Test
frickin struggling wrote:
wdo wrote:
I bought the Hoka Clifton 5 because I liked the Bondi 5 so much, but the Cliftons gave me instant shin splint pain, like in the first few steps even.
When you buy a new kind of running shoe, you need to think of it as a big gamble that might not pay off. If you think of it like 'I'm stuck with these shoes for 400 miles', you can get yourself hurt.
Don't get yourself hurt. You might be fine in some slightly less squishy Hoka model. And sometimes a shoe with an even taller stack height will be less squishy than the Cliftons.
The Hoka Clifton 5 is actually the exact shoe that I'm having these issues with. To your point I'm definitely not about to suffer through 400 miles with these shoes. I don't think I would even be able to.
Another poster asked what I had success in, and that was typically racing flats of all sorts. One of my favs was and still is the Nike Streak and the Saucony Type A flats or whatever they're called.
The original reason for investing in the Hokas wasn't because I was necessarily trying to reinvent the wheel, but I was having some relatively minor aches and pains associated with running a a heavier (for me) weight. Now I'm back down to within 5-10 lbs of my old racing weight, and I feel like the ultra cushion shoes are doing me more harm than good. Interesting to hear about your shin splits with the same model. ....I might be demoting these shoes to kicking around the house, and go back to something closer to flats.
Congrats on the weight loss. But you could try some of Hoka's more sporty, firm models at some point too. Even the Clifton 4 was supposedly much more firm than the 5, and you probably would have enjoyed and benefited from the cushion.
In fact, anything sounds better for you over the long term than racing flats with all that impact on your joints.
I've had issues with cushioned shoes in the past that led to achilles issues. Very painful. I switched to zero drop minimalist running shoes. I've used the New balance minimus trail, the merrell trail and vapor glove, and the Altra Superior 3.5 and 4.0. It seems that the more minimal the shoe the better. I've run several marathons in the merrell trail glove and one 50 mile mountain trail race. Take it for what is worth.
Seems like the downside of too much support or cushioning is they allow you to ignore mechaincal issues that over time will lead to injuries.
frickin struggling wrote:
wdo wrote:
I bought the Hoka Clifton 5 because I liked the Bondi 5 so much, but the Cliftons gave me instant shin splint pain, like in the first few steps even.
When you buy a new kind of running shoe, you need to think of it as a big gamble that might not pay off. If you think of it like 'I'm stuck with these shoes for 400 miles', you can get yourself hurt.
Don't get yourself hurt. You might be fine in some slightly less squishy Hoka model. And sometimes a shoe with an even taller stack height will be less squishy than the Cliftons.
The Hoka Clifton 5 is actually the exact shoe that I'm having these issues with. To your point I'm definitely not about to suffer through 400 miles with these shoes. I don't think I would even be able to.
Another poster asked what I had success in, and that was typically racing flats of all sorts. One of my favs was and still is the Nike Streak and the Saucony Type A flats or whatever they're called.
The original reason for investing in the Hokas wasn't because I was necessarily trying to reinvent the wheel, but I was having some relatively minor aches and pains associated with running a a heavier (for me) weight. Now I'm back down to within 5-10 lbs of my old racing weight, and I feel like the ultra cushion shoes are doing me more harm than good. Interesting to hear about your shin splits with the same model. ....I might be demoting these shoes to kicking around the house, and go back to something closer to flats.
You might think twice about wearing shoes that don't work for running when you are just kicking around. It may be more subtle but those hours in dysfunctional footwear can add up. Lots of people have learned not to wear anything that isn't positive for for foot strength and function. People disagree on what that is, but they stick to what they believe because the get burned otherwise.
The second link is research from the 80s out of the Nike sport research lab. The first link is showing the trend holds true across gender and age groups.
Softer shoes = hit the ground harder. You tend to run more 'sloppy' in softer shoes because you are protected. Tend to run more 'guarded' in minimal shoes (i.e. shorter stride length etc.).
I too can not do super soft shoes. It just doesn't feel right and aggravates my tib anterior muscle. Also get some achilles soreness stabilizing out all that cushion.
Not abnormal to get some injury symptom in a super soft shoe that you need to stabilize, either by crunching up your foot inside, pushing harder into it, or some other method.
Everyone knows that when cushion was invented so were knee doctors
Thx for those links - I knew I read similar studies out of UK. For me, specifically, it was the Razor Hyper - loved that shoe, but after a very hilly 7 miler, I was limping the following day. Never had piriformis/hamstring issues in 30+ yrs of serious miles.
I honestly think shoes are as individual as the runner.
Some need the cushions because otherwise their joint can't handle it. Others get the best results with minimalist. I had the best result with rotation more shoes into my running. Used to run with only one pair for everything and I got injured a lot. Now I rotate more and it has made my legs more resilient. Its trial and error really.
But that said: shoes will not solve all your crappy technique for you. When you heel strike excessively then yeah that puts a ton of strain on your knee. Some shoes might make it better, some make it worse. But the only one that can actually help with all this is you yourself by improving your technique.
And all that said: If you have no medically relevant level pf pronation (aka your ankles almost touch the ground). Do NOT buy support shoes. Pronation is needed for shock absorption. "Over"-pronation is something that has been invented by Brooks in the 70ies and there is NO indication that most of the people that buy stability shoes need them. You cannot use natural pronation for shock absorption in these shoes and you WILL get injured.
runningchick wrote:
I honestly think shoes are as individual as the runner.
Some need the cushions because otherwise their joint can't handle it. Others get the best results with minimalist. I had the best result with rotation more shoes into my running. Used to run with only one pair for everything and I got injured a lot. Now I rotate more and it has made my legs more resilient. Its trial and error really.
But that said: shoes will not solve all your crappy technique for you. When you heel strike excessively then yeah that puts a ton of strain on your knee. Some shoes might make it better, some make it worse. But the only one that can actually help with all this is you yourself by improving your technique.
And all that said: If you have no medically relevant level pf pronation (aka your ankles almost touch the ground). Do NOT buy support shoes. Pronation is needed for shock absorption. "Over"-pronation is something that has been invented by Brooks in the 70ies and there is NO indication that most of the people that buy stability shoes need them. You cannot use natural pronation for shock absorption in these shoes and you WILL get injured.
The issue with zero drop minimalist running shoes is that they "force" you to better your biomechanics. One must start slow when using zero drop minimalist shoes.
In "Born to run" there is some fun stories revolving around these matters. I bought some Sketchers based on a lot of good reviews here at LRC, they felt like running on a tennisball, so we are not all alike.
The good thing about being minimalistic is that you may buy a pair of (a bit) cushioned shoes, then the more you run in them the better they get.
Hokas trail versus road shoes are night and day. Almost like 2 different companies in terms of firmness. Nearly all or all of their trails shoes are firm (torrent, goat, evo mafate, etc.). I have never been injured running in those shoes when doing tons of very long runs with substantial vert on technical trails. Now, their road shoes are different. I know I was getting nicked up from the Clifton 6 because it was so soft and the shoe would compress and stress my Achilles area. Didn't happen as much in the new Rincon which is firmer. I think a soft cushioned shoe can cause problems, but a firm cushioned shoe is less of an issue. I also rotate between various Hokas, Kinvaras, and Reebok Run Fast Ride. They are generally similar drop shoes so this works okay. Overall, I am pretty convinced your gait is going to play a far bigger part in injury than a shoe.
darkwave wrote:
Add me to the list of those for whom cushioned shoes don't work. I struggle to stay injury free in even moderately cushioned shoes like the Brooks Ghost or Mizuno Wave Rider. It's a matter of stability - my ankles are weak anyways due to chronic problems (yes, I do a ton of wobble board work) and any cushioning just amplifies that instability.
For me, running in firm, minimally cushioned shoes with a wide toe box (to give my big toe space to work and stabilize my foot) is what works for me.
I think it's also worth noting that cushioning isn't scaled in shoes - my women's size 7s have the same amount of cushioning as a men's 11. And It makes sense that I, being much smaller, will experience that cushioning much differently than a larger person, since I'm hitting the ground with much less force.
There's another point here that people don't think about. The smaller your shoe size is the larger the decline that you're running on. A women's size 7 ghost will overload the quads more than a mens size 11 will for example. I don't know if running and the injuries related will ever be important enough that we will ever really figure out biomechanics and the impact of shoes on the body. Not enough interest/money.
Can you share what shoes work for you, darkwave? I think that's what I'm looking for in my next pair of shoes
Are the shin splints posterior (pain medial) or anterior (pain anterior)?
Posterior shin splints are usually down to tibialis posterior, which has a few actions with a major one being controlling pronation and maintaining the medial arch of the foot when under load. The muscle belly is high on medial calf and a slim tendon curves behind the medial malleolus to spread out beneath the foot - it has a big job and it's common for new shoes to overwhelm it, with cushy shoes is easy to see there being more pronation, and changing angles on the arch as the foot settles in to the padding over time.
Low Dye taping is very effective, it supports the arch of the foot and is very quick and easy. Loads of videos around to help you out