20 x 400 in 58-60 with 45 s recovery? Just curious, is there a possibility your memory tricks you and it was sometimes a lower number of intervals, sometimes a longer recovery and sometimes a slower pace? Like you did 10 x 400 in 58-60 s with 90 s or even 2 min and sometimes 20 x 400 in 64-66 with 45 s and you just mixed it up?
Because if the workout was really true you really must have been at least a 3:52-3:55 miler / low 13 min 5 k runner....
Partridge wrote:
20 x 400 in 58-60 with 45 s recovery? Just curious, is there a possibility your memory tricks you and it was sometimes a lower number of intervals, sometimes a longer recovery and sometimes a slower pace? Like you did 10 x 400 in 58-60 s with 90 s or even 2 min and sometimes 20 x 400 in 64-66 with 45 s and you just mixed it up?
Because if the workout was really true you really must have been at least a 3:52-3:55 miler / low 13 min 5 k runner....
You're right, my memory may be off (this was like 15-20 years ago). It was 20x for sure though. I remember that the 200m/400m guys would jump in for the first 5-8 or so which really upped the pace. Now that I think about it, we had a "longish" rest somewhere in between the 20 (I think at the 10x mark we rested for 5 minutes or so, followed by another 5 minute or so rest before the 1600m time trial).
We had several sub-4 milers and past/future Olympians training with us and I know I tailed off at the end by a few seconds. Recovery was short, but I never timed it myself so it may have been closer to 60s and I'm just thinking 45s based on other workouts. I also may have been closer to 62-64s or so for the last 10, but certainly not must slower than 65 because that to me would have felt like crawling.
And for whatever it's worth, the best 1500m I mustered in college was 3:50ish. Never ran the 5K competitively after HS, although I did hobby jog a few 5ks for fun.
formerD1 wrote:
Partridge wrote:
20 x 400 in 58-60 with 45 s recovery? Just curious, is there a possibility your memory tricks you and it was sometimes a lower number of intervals, sometimes a longer recovery and sometimes a slower pace? Like you did 10 x 400 in 58-60 s with 90 s or even 2 min and sometimes 20 x 400 in 64-66 with 45 s and you just mixed it up?
Because if the workout was really true you really must have been at least a 3:52-3:55 miler / low 13 min 5 k runner....
You're right, my memory may be off (this was like 15-20 years ago). It was 20x for sure though. I remember that the 200m/400m guys would jump in for the first 5-8 or so which really upped the pace. Now that I think about it, we had a "longish" rest somewhere in between the 20 (I think at the 10x mark we rested for 5 minutes or so, followed by another 5 minute or so rest before the 1600m time trial).
We had several sub-4 milers and past/future Olympians training with us and I know I tailed off at the end by a few seconds. Recovery was short, but I never timed it myself so it may have been closer to 60s and I'm just thinking 45s based on other workouts. I also may have been closer to 62-64s or so for the last 10, but certainly not must slower than 65 because that to me would have felt like crawling.
Even if you did 2 sets of 10 x 400s at 58-60 sec with 45 sec rest and 5 min rest between sets that was an impressive interval. With my system I`m sure I had coached you sub 3:40 at 1500m . Absolutely 100% sure! :)) Sometimes it makes me feel sad when I think about so many talents in history that became wasted because of bad coaching.
Maybe you should do like my example and try to find a runner to coach that has the same talent as yourself when back 15-20 years and see how good you probably had been with the knowledge you have to day? I mean the knowledge that the runner must do training paces and workouts that are up to the runners present shape and no "killer workouts" that only can lead to overdoing and injuries …….
This is all eyewash. Run one, jog one. Snell did 20 x 400m with short recovery. As you get closer to your peak race you implement time trials or longer reps with respect to your race distance. The problem isn't the number of reps or the interval duration or any of those side tracks...the problem comes when you engage in lactate tolerance training year-round. Snell would not have benefitted from those killer sessions or time trials if he hadn't spent at least 10 weeks building a large base at a steady effort. Key word...steady...not LSD...and not above lactate threshold.
too hot 3 wrote:
This is all eyewash. Run one, jog one. Snell did 20 x 400m with short recovery. As you get closer to your peak race you implement time trials or longer reps with respect to your race distance. The problem isn't the number of reps or the interval duration or any of those side tracks...the problem comes when you engage in lactate tolerance training year-round. Snell would not have benefitted from those killer sessions or time trials if he hadn't spent at least 10 weeks building a large base at a steady effort. Key word...steady...not LSD...and not above lactate threshold.
Done by the Art of coaching it`s not performed that way. It`s not a question of "lactate tolerance" , it`s a question of teaching the body to use lactate most effectively, a very big difference! I very seldom use Time Trials.I don`t have to. Out from the paces and recovery times in workouts I can tell almost exactly what race time can be expected.
Sorry, my bad. I read the title and thought this had something to do with Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey. I was going to suggest trying some Johnnie Walker over ice but I guess this is something a bit different!
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Done by the Art of coaching it`s not performed that way. It`s not a question of "lactate tolerance" , it`s a question of teaching the body to use lactate most effectively, a very big difference! I very seldom use Time Trials.I don`t have to. Out from the paces and recovery times in workouts I can tell almost exactly what race time can be expected.
Yeah that's what I understood as well - teaching your body to quickly recycle lactic acid as usable energy, and by connection never cross the lacate accumulation threshold.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Even if you did 2 sets of 10 x 400s at 58-60 sec with 45 sec rest and 5 min rest between sets that was an impressive interval. With my system I`m sure I had coached you sub 3:40 at 1500m . Absolutely 100% sure! :)) Sometimes it makes me feel sad when I think about so many talents in history that became wasted because of bad coaching.
Maybe you should do like my example and try to find a runner to coach that has the same talent as yourself when back 15-20 years and see how good you probably had been with the knowledge you have to day? I mean the knowledge that the runner must do training paces and workouts that are up to the runners present shape and no "killer workouts" that only can lead to overdoing and injuries …….
I thought about this some more (my workout example) and I think I know why I am having a hard time remembering the exact details.
When we were doing 20x400m, there was just one plan. Go out and do them at 60s, with 45s rest (maybe it was 45-60 I don't recall). This wasn't directed at me, even though I was in the audience. No, it was being directed at the guys who were going to go on to run at the Olympic Trials and the Olympics, and the guys who had already ran in the last Olympics who wanted to shoot for a medal or top 5 finish. I was just a bystander, and looking back, the coaches didn't give a crap whether I could do the workout or even finish it (well they would probably have said something if I just gave up after 10).
I still vividly remember the look in the coach's eyes as he was screaming at the top kids to push ("Goooo...goooo!!!"). Not at me though :P So I won't say necessarily this was bad coaching. Our top kids had really good results. But the ones like me who were just struggling to hang on and left puking/dizzy at the end, well yeah we probably should have had a different workout altogether. In hindsight I have no idea what time I finished those reps in, since I was always a few steps behind the first finishers (sometimes because I couldn't keep up, sometimes because well there were like 10 of us and a line would form inevitably). Maybe the top kids were hitting their targets, I don't know. I recall hearing their splits being called out so maybe in my memory I remember those times as mine.
Speaking of "outdated" coaching methods...one thing our coach had us do before certain hard workouts was a really hard 1200m run as a "warmup" to get our bodies ready for the even harder intervals. This was based on perceived effort and we were just told to go hard. He wanted us to do intervals in a state of fatigue. It sorta sounds plausible, but doesn't make any sense to do this when you really think about it.
I have no interest in coaching.