How hard does Marathon pace feel?

Icouldbeyourmom wrote:

Everyone on here talks about bonking on such “low” mileage as 45 mpw but in reality tons of older runners with families only have the time and energy to train that much and plenty of them I know personally have run 3:20-3:40 marathons without hitting a wall or bonking beyond just inevitable slight slowdown during the last 5 miles.

Yeah, I ran a 2-minute positive split 3:12 on about 45 mpw. But it was my 4th marathon. I'm old and have a family.

DavefromUK wrote:

There is always one smart guy on this forum who latches on to mileage. 40-45 is fine, and if planned properly is more than enough to run a decent marathon.

I averaged about 42 mpw prior to running my lifetime PR marathon (2:40 at age 23). I just never managed to maintain higher mileage -- injuries, time management challenges. On similar mileage, I ran 2:56 at age 43.

I rarely target marathon pace in training. Long runs are much slower, or are progressions. Workouts and tempo runs are faster. But running any significant training distance at MP is really difficult for me. When 6:44/mi was MP in my 40s, a 14-miler at 7:02 was a very hard effort.

At super-low mileage, training paces get a bit wonky. At age 57, I ran 3:26 off less than 20 mpw. No bonk, slightly negative splits. That's 7:52/mile pace. Weirdly, most of my training was at close to MP. Two weeks out, I ran a 15-miler at 7:30/mile ... MP minus 22 seconds!

The next year, I more than doubled my mileage from 19 mpw to 40+, and ran 3:07 at age 58. On race day, I averaged 7:07/mile, then bonked somewhat the last two miles, 7:30 pace.

Like in my 20s and 40s, running similar mileage, marathon pace was challenging and rarely achieved in training (except for repeats and short threshold runs, which were faster than MP). I actually tried to incorporate some MP in medium-long and long runs, and couldn't do it. Still, on race day as usual, I intuitively ran MP from the start. Well, not counting miles 25 and 26!

Ok this was the most helpful response, thank you. I’m currently running 40-45 mpw and going up to 50+ in the next few weeks. I’m targeting a 3:29 marathon, around 7:50-7:55 pace. I do a weekly track workout much faster than MP, then long runs around 8:30 pace, with every other long run part tempo or fast finish, but even those my overall pace averages 8:15-8:20 or so. All the rest of my filler mileage is easy pace which in the summer heat is around 8:20.

My plan has started throwing in MGP runs once a week and the pace feels weird and frankly, kind of hard. And that’s only for 5 miles. I am aware that we are in the peak heat of summer, but I was kinda hoping 5 miles at marathon pace would be a breeze, and it’s not.

Icouldbeyourmom wrote:

Ok this was the most helpful response, thank you. I’m currently running 40-45 mpw and going up to 50+ in the next few weeks. I’m targeting a 3:29 marathon, around 7:50-7:55 pace. I do a weekly track workout much faster than MP, then long runs around 8:30 pace, with every other long run part tempo or fast finish, but even those my overall pace averages 8:15-8:20 or so. All the rest of my filler mileage is easy pace which in the summer heat is around 8:20.

My plan has started throwing in MGP runs once a week and the pace feels weird and frankly, kind of hard. And that’s only for 5 miles. I am aware that we are in the peak heat of summer, but I was kinda hoping 5 miles at marathon pace would be a breeze, and it’s not.

Most helpful, as in what you wanted to hear?

Whatever else, 40-45 is on the low side. 50+ is fine. You probably want 4 to 6 weeks of that

You’re running your easy miles too fast, IMO. 9:00 to 9:30 would be better

Icouldbeyourmom wrote:

My plan has started throwing in MGP runs once a week and the pace feels weird and frankly, kind of hard. And that’s only for 5 miles. I am aware that we are in the peak heat of summer, but I was kinda hoping 5 miles at marathon pace would be a breeze, and it’s not.

In the heat of summer, it's difficult to hit "textbook" paces. Really have to go by perceived effort, which gets back to your original question. So a bit of a conundrum.

But, looking back on my most recent marathon training, on a cool day I ran my 4- or 5-mile threshold runs at about 30 seconds per mile faster than marathon pace. That was a hard effort in training, but still about 15 seconds per mile slower than my 1-hour race pace (the Daniels definition of Threshold Pace, and my 15K race pace at the time).

So, anyway how, on a cool day, MP for 5 miles would have felt brisk and would take some concentration, but should have been very doable. As I mentioned previously, however, I rarely targeted MP. And in the middle of a long run, found MP to be very challenging the couple times I did attempt it.

Also, beware of "Goal Marathon Pace." Especially on relatively low mileage, Goal Pace can be overly optimistic. The Daniels calculator, for example, will overestimated your marathon ability, compared to shorter races.

And, finally, even with all the information available today, it's hard to judge that first marathon. For my first one, I was wildly inaccurate in my projection. I didn't know of any comparative tables in 1981, and just guessed. My long runs were all very slow, so I aimed for 3:30 and hit halfway on pace at 8:00/mile. At that point, however, I realized it was way too slow, and ran the second half at 6:50 pace.

Well, that was crazy, but better than the other way around! And I would suggest on marathon day, especially your first marathon, to start conservatively.

Good luck!

Fair enough. I consulted with a coach who also advised me to slow my easy pace to 8:45-8:55

I calculated goal pace based on my recent half time doubled plus 12 minutes. So (1:38x2 = 3:16)+12=3:28, which is 7:55ish pace

Icouldbeyourmom wrote:

I calculated goal pace based on my recent half time doubled plus 12 minutes. So (1:38x2 = 3:16)+12=3:28, which is 7:55ish pace

My most recent marathon (3:07:23), was double my HM plus 13 minutes. Close to your formula, bit still slower. And the Daniels calculator estimated double HM plus only 7:30!

It's the low mileage. 40-45 mpw is fine, but not optimal. I mentioned before, it's still the best I've ever consistently maintained, due to injuries and time management struggles.

The Daniels calculator gives me a 3:25 marathon and that’s crazy.

I will try to remember to come back in 2 months and post my actual results. At the very least, I should get a 5k PR out of this training cycle! I know 45 mpw is low for this board but it’s the most I’ve ever run, so even just one month in, my paces are dropping across all distances.

Marathon pace is going to feel easy for the first 17 or so miles...

A guide I have used with myself and runners is that during the marathon, if the pace feels great you are going too fast. I think the first few miles should feel a bit slow.

Marathon pace is going to feel very different depending on your target time.

I can tell you that, based on conversations with my 2:2x marathoning friends, MP feels much easier for me than it does for them. Which makes sense, since I'm a 2:5x marathoner.

For a 2:25 marathoner, MP is what the runner can hold for 2 hours and 25 minutes. That's going to feel different from how marathon pace feels for a 3 hour marathoner, which in turn will differ from how MP feels from a 3:30 or 4 hour marathoner.

So...the answers more pertinent to the OP's question will come from those of a similar fitness level.