Asking from across the pond - what's the latest factual stuff on NOP / Salazar

I agree that they either have the magic stuff nobody can detect or they stay on the legal side of grey. They must be among the most scrutinized groups ever. Otherwise Nike would have to pay off not only USADA but many others as well as now they have athletes from several European countries, Japan and Australia.

doot doot wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Nah the only rumblings of information about the investigation are just crap that the cry baby Gouchers make up.

+1

A bunch of bitter, ungrateful former athletes and a coach who benefitted from the NOP ... turned “whistleblower” after their careers were over. Ever wonder why no one said a damned thing while the checks were clearing?

@OP what’s the latest on Mo Farah? Test dodging, fist fighting, gossip queen, globE trotting POster child of British Athletics?

+1

rekrunner wrote:

The anti-doping principle of not commenting on on-going investigations, until a guilty finding, and leaving investigations open forever, suggests that if we have not heard anything by now, we likely never will.

I agree and it's a bad look all around. Salazar, Farah, Rupp and company are left with stains on their names and the lack of transparency by USADA makes it hard to tell whether USADA was ever actually willing and able to undertake this investigation.

Galen Rupp fan wrote:

doot doot wrote:

+1

A bunch of bitter, ungrateful former athletes and a coach who benefitted from the NOP ... turned “whistleblower” after their careers were over. Ever wonder why no one said a damned thing while the checks were clearing?

@OP what’s the latest on Mo Farah? Test dodging, fist fighting, gossip queen, globE trotting POster child of British Athletics?

+1

+1

Also, I see what you did there ;) lol

Thank you for agreeing with me, but I didn't say anything about busting or not busting. Your examples are good ones: Merritt got his ban shortened in time for Daegu, and the other two got their bans halfened. No teeth. Other examples: Wilson and Roberts tested positive but didn't get banned (beef and kissing, lolz), and Rollins played cat and mouse with the tester in the airport, which was viewed as an unintended missed test. Lolz. The Armstrong example, or rather US Postal, makes for a nice comparison with NOP: several positive tests, couple of witnesses, yet no action from USADA for ten years! No teeth... the feds had to help. NOP: forbidden method, Farah and Rupp likely doping, Centro with Hb spike, Rupp with testo spike, plus all the Magness and Kara stuff, investigation since 2015 or so, nada, as predicted.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Correct. Remember it's USADA we are talking about: all bark, no bite.

(Unless a case about a retiree gets hand-delivered by the feds)

Justin Gatlin

Lashawn Merritt

Tyson Gay

But you're right, USADA doesn't bust anyone noteworthy.

David S wrote:

Probably the same as Jama Aden

Exactly. When anyone gets around to doing any f cking thing about the Sabadell(or was it Font-Romeau?) incident, get back to us.

Hassan is an interesting case, as she showed up as the only Dutch on the famous IAAF likely doping list, but with less extreme spikes than Farah and Rupp. She then joined their coach, well, maybe she decided to go all the way...

This just looks like cases of USADA implementing the WADA code, as they, and all signatories, are bound to. The code allows thoughtful reasoned determinations of unintention, and for reduced sentences, according to the cirumstances, not to mention due process for the athletes. USADA is also not the final word, as ADOs like IAAF and WADA have the right to appeal if the resulting ban is inappropriate. The IAAF has used this right to lengthen the lenient bans of some athletes. With respect to the feds helping, I recall also that Tygart (USADA) complained about the complete lack of cooperation with the federal investigation, for example forcing USADA to re-conduct interviews with the witnesses because federal evidence remain sealed.

casual obsever wrote:

Thank you for agreeing with me, but I didn't say anything about busting or not busting.

Your examples are good ones: Merritt got his ban shortened in time for Daegu, and the other two got their bans halfened. No teeth.

Other examples: Wilson and Roberts tested positive but didn't get banned (beef and kissing, lolz), and Rollins played cat and mouse with the tester in the airport, which was viewed as an unintended missed test. Lolz.

The Armstrong example, or rather US Postal, makes for a nice comparison with NOP: several positive tests, couple of witnesses, yet no action from USADA for ten years! No teeth... the feds had to help.

NOP: forbidden method, Farah and Rupp likely doping, Centro with Hb spike, Rupp with testo spike, plus all the Magness and Kara stuff, investigation since 2015 or so, nada, as predicted.

I'll draw a similar conclusion here -- as we have seen through leaks, USADA has done a lot in order to collect, or attempt to collect, evidence from witnesses, and compel medical files through the courts. At no point did I ever doubt USADA's willingness and ability to investigate. They simply cannot act if they do not have sufficient evidence that a rule was broken. This repeated complaint of "lack of transparancy" may be frustrating for fans, but it is a necessary approach, in the interest of fairness and in order to protect reputations of innocent athletes. In no case should an innocent athlete or support staff ever be publicly accused, and this is only possible when the lack of transparency. I also think it is not reasonable to expect anti-doping agencies to expend any part of their limited resources debunking unripe allegations that went public.

3hr-marathoner wrote:

I agree and it's a bad look all around. Salazar, Farah, Rupp and company are left with stains on their names and the lack of transparency by USADA makes it hard to tell whether USADA was ever actually willing and able to undertake this investigation.

Here's actually what happened:

USADA and Gatlin agreed on an eight year ban, but Gatlin sought a reduction through arbitration and got it reduced to four years.

Merritt tested positive for DHEA and was able to prove to American Arbitration Association that he took Extenze for his other issue and the association agreed to a 21 month ban.

USADA banned Gay for 23 months for DHEA, back dated to his first use of the cream that contained DHEA in July 2012.

Zeranol isn't much of a PED and:

Gil Roberts received a finding of no fault from the American Arbitration Association.

USADA doesn't care who you are, you are guilty until proven innocent in their eyes and if they wanted go easy on any of these announced positive tests, there would be no announcement of any kind.

Exactly, USADA lost here, no teeth, as I said.

Exactly, USADA lost here, no teeth, as I said.

No, the ban was reduced to one year, see for example here:

Disagreed, strongly. That's also irrelevant for the ban, as long as the substance is officially classified as forbidden PED, which it is.

Yeah - she presented evidence that she ate beef, and USADA wisely decided to not analyze said batch.

Exactly, USADA lost here, no teeth, as I said.

That's a joke, right? I gave examples where they lost in arbitration (whether on purpose or not is not clear), and others where they chose to let the cheat get off easily.

I note that you neither commented on Armstrong 2001 - 2010 nor on Rollins.

I appreciate that innocent athletes have a reasonable expectation to privacy but what appears to be a policy of principled silence can also be a convenient way for USADA to hide it's own shortcomings.

Also, I don't necessarily take the number of people interviewed as evidence that USADA tried to get to the bottom of this, especially when some of the people interviewed (e.g. the Gouchers) believe that they passed incriminating evidence to the investigators. It's not enough to collect evidence if nothing is done with it. From the outside looking in it's hard to tell if they really pursued anything.

Moving on from the issue of privacy, there are public threads that have been left hanging. Take for example the back and forth between Propublica and Salazar regarding testing steroid creams on his son. Salazar admits to this in his rebuttal to the Propublica piece. Is this sort of experimentation with banned substances allowed? Can I coach a team and test banned substances on the assistant coaches? Surely USADA has something to say on this topic.

This is quite correct if the allegations are truly spurious but undertaking investigations is a legitimate role of anti-doping authorities and would seem to be the only way to catch sophisticated cheaters like Lance Armstrong. I'll say this of the NOP: they are nothing if not sophisticated.

NOP-Run: These aren't the dopers you're looking for.

Letrunners: These aren't the dopers we're looking for.

NOP-Run: He can go on your.

Letrunners: You can go on your run

NOP-Run: run along.

Letrunners: run along...run along.

I don't speak about a right to privacy, but a right to an untarnished reputation. It's one thing to report suspicions to your local ADA, in private and in confidence, for investigation, but quite another to go public with allegations that cause permanent irreparable reputational harm. I'm not sure where this suspicion that USADA is sitting on incriminating evidence, or USADA didn't dig deep enough comes from. Surely not public information. Based on what was made public, most of what was reported was either 1) allowed by the WADA code, or 2) not under USADA's jurisdiction. What remains was either based on ambiguous evidence, or no evidence, that any alleged ADRV occurred. My expectation of only possible outcomes was that USADA 1) could lobby for rule changes, or 2) could report some of the issues to the right authorities with jurisdiction. Regarding you repeating the testosterone experiment, if it involves athletes under USADA's jurisdication, or support staff in possession of a banned substance without medical justification, USADA would indeed have something to say. If Salazar admitted to it, it is no longer a hanging thread. In any case, it is not for USADA to decide a back and forth between two other parties about a topic not under USADA's jurisdiction.

Hjklmn wrote:

Ketone

Yes, probably infused somehow. They would have looked into gases as well. Probably extreme vitamin infusions, trace mineral injections. Patches, testo creams.

rekrunner wrote:

To be honest, I didn't give the reports any weight at the time,

We already know that, goes without stating. Your default setting.

casual obsever wrote:

larkimm wrote:

So, nothing to report then? No rumblings of an imminent report due?

Correct. Remember it's USADA we are talking about: all bark, no bite.

(Unless a case about a retiree gets hand-delivered by the feds)

Ukad is no better

They were trying to cover up stuff

I know, it really is laughable. Trevor Graham sent them "The Clear" (THG), they didn't have a clue. Gay got let off by blaming his masseuse, how ridiculous. Ample evidence on Rupp's testo meds and thyroid abuse. Lots of thyroid abuse. A garage full of dodgy supplements. The checking of his athletes to make sure they aren't hot. Comments from Don Caitlin about Salazar pushing the limits. LA was only scared of the FBI, not USADA.

just sayin wrote:

Ukad is no better

Quite possibly. Without police, they can't really investigate, they can only ask around. And of course Brits trust British athletes...

What we'd need, is police involvement, such as in Operation Aderlass, so offices and computers can be searched. But alas, the Lord with his murky deals is openly opposed to that, as is our political system (understandably; imagine arresting LeBron, or visiting Messi - hypothetical examples of course).

And then get rid of this ridiculous self-policing system. Strangely, while many think only their own and a few other NADOs are trustworthy (UKAD and USADA are often named here as positive exceptions), very few argue generally against this principle. Most would agree that Russians in charge of Russian athletes, Kenyans in charge of Kenyan athletes and so obviously causes a bunch of issues. Yet we continue with same old, same old.

Ideally that should be randomized, and then changed every couple of yours. For example now France in charge of US, US in charge of Kenya, Kenya in charge of Belarus. Countries that don't play along pretending visa issues get banned from Olympics, done.