To those who say ALL elites are doping, what exactly are they on?

ponderer of ponds wrote:

There numerous posters on here that claim that all elite runners are doping in some way, not just the usual suspects like Kenya, Morocco, Russia, etc. OK fine, so doping explains how they are so fast. So what exactly are they using? And how are they getting away with it. I'm more interested in hearing about athletes from developed countries with more drug testing.

I remember reading a post some time ago from someone who claimed to have first hand knowledge the all of the BTC athletes are doping. I'd like to hear the specifics on that if that poster is still around (of course, he may have just been trolling).

All elites aren't doping (except perhaps Russia with their State-sponsored doping program).

But for the ones who are doping this informative report will give you some insight on what's being used and how they're avoiding getting caught:

of course all elites are doping. And there is no state-sponsored doping in Russia, and perhaps not anywhere - that's a leftover perception bias from the fact that of all history's dopers, only the few state-sponsored programs kept detailed records of it.

What they use now is mostly what they were already using, only less of it. Not only epo but anabolics can be safely microdosed, as long as you're safely below the missed-test threshold, or in the NCAA which doesn't do surprise midnight testing.

There is surely a new stimulant in the sprint world compensating for the lower levels of anabolics. The proliferation of sub 9.90 and sub 44 runners could not have happened without one.

There is an androgen epidemic in the sport: androgel, patches and testosterone lozenges are everywhere but aren't being detected. They have to develop a muscle biopsy test to detect DNA alterations from androgens, do it in an end of career test. There is blood doping as well, small transfusions are big right now. Gray area doping is likely huge as well.

Bad Wigins wrote:

of course all elites are doping. And there is no state-sponsored doping in Russia, and perhaps not anywhere - that's a leftover perception bias from the fact that of all history's dopers, only the few state-sponsored programs kept detailed records of it.

What they use now is mostly what they were already using, only less of it. Not only epo but anabolics can be safely microdosed, as long as you're safely below the missed-test threshold, or in the NCAA which doesn't do surprise midnight testing.

There is surely a new stimulant in the sprint world compensating for the lower levels of anabolics. The proliferation of sub 9.90 and sub 44 runners could not have happened without one.

"of course all elites are doping?" C'mon Wigins...that's crazy! That would mean thousands of elites from track events, field events, road circuit, etc. That's so silly it's not even worth debating. ?

☝️And there is state-sponsored doping in Russia - why do you think the whole damn nation was banned? Perhaps just because the IAAF didn't like Putin? Lol. The doping over there went up to the highest level of government. They were doping like they were back in the old Soviet days where they would drink vodka and dance around the campfire. Bad habits are hard to break.

Subway Surfers wrote:

There is an androgen epidemic in the sport: androgel, patches and testosterone lozenges are everywhere but aren't being detected. They have to develop a muscle biopsy test to detect DNA alterations from androgens, do it in an end of career test. There is blood doping as well, small transfusions are big right now. Gray area doping is likely huge as well.

But it seems rather unlikely that microdosing of such a kind would have effects similar to the massive doses used in the 70s and 80s with steroids and later with EPO, doesn't it? If the doses are far smaller because of better and more frequent controls why are the sprinters so good (actually better than back then, even the women are getting closer, if not to Flojo than to the Eastern bloc 100/200 times).

Can't Believe What I'm Hearing wrote:

And there is state-sponsored doping in Russia - why do you think the whole damn nation was banned? Perhaps just because the IAAF didn't like Putin? Lol.

Yes, that's exactly why, and ridicule won't make it go away. Maybe you didn't hear about most of the banned athletes being exonerated - or more likely you heard but "couldn't believe it."

Jo72 wrote:

But it seems rather unlikely that microdosing of such a kind would have effects similar to the massive doses used in the 70s and 80s with steroids and later with EPO, doesn't it? If the doses are far smaller because of better and more frequent controls why are the sprinters so good (actually better than back then, even the women are getting closer, if not to Flojo than to the Eastern bloc 100/200 times).

Well for one, "micro"dosing is a misleading term at best. For example we have seen that athletes still can use 200 ml blood transfusions (in virtual unlimited frequency!) instead of the traditional 500 ml.

Secondly, there are always new drugs, commonly known examples are HGH, EPO, and the speed peptide. Yes, they are tested for, but always a few years later. Also see comment one, and the new drugs come in addition to the old drugs.

Thirdly, everything else improves too, including training, nutrition, track, shoes, so we should see a steady improvement from decade to decade if doping wouldn't matter. Yet, the times from Koch, Kratochvílová, FloJo, Komen, El G, Radcliffe, Bekele and Bolt from earlier decades continue to remain unreachable - for now, but not forever, see above.

Jo72 wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

There is an androgen epidemic in the sport: androgel, patches and testosterone lozenges are everywhere but aren't being detected. They have to develop a muscle biopsy test to detect DNA alterations from androgens, do it in an end of career test. There is blood doping as well, small transfusions are big right now. Gray area doping is likely huge as well.

But it seems rather unlikely that microdosing of such a kind would have effects similar to the massive doses used in the 70s and 80s with steroids and later with EPO, doesn't it? If the doses are far smaller because of better and more frequent controls why are the sprinters so good (actually better than back then, even the women are getting closer, if not to Flojo than to the Eastern bloc 100/200 times).

Never said microdosing but that could the case for epo. They're obviously doing something, look at the physiques of some of these athletes, they didn't get that from their parents. Read Conte's take on all of this, he reckons they don't want it cleaned up.

Jo72 wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

There is an androgen epidemic in the sport: androgel, patches and testosterone lozenges are everywhere but aren't being detected. They have to develop a muscle biopsy test to detect DNA alterations from androgens, do it in an end of career test. There is blood doping as well, small transfusions are big right now. Gray area doping is likely huge as well.

But it seems rather unlikely that microdosing of such a kind would have effects similar to the massive doses used in the 70s and 80s with steroids and later with EPO, doesn't it? If the doses are far smaller because of better and more frequent controls why are the sprinters so good (actually better than back then, even the women are getting closer, if not to Flojo than to the Eastern bloc 100/200 times).

Microdosing blood transfusions can improve performance almost 5%.

ponderer of ponds wrote:

There numerous posters on here that claim that all elite runners are doping in some way, not just the usual suspects like Kenya, Morocco, Russia, etc. OK fine, so doping explains how they are so fast. So what exactly are they using? And how are they getting away with it. I'm more interested in hearing about athletes from developed countries with more drug testing.

I remember reading a post some time ago from someone who claimed to have first hand knowledge the all of the BTC athletes are doping. I'd like to hear the specifics on that if that poster is still around (of course, he may have just been trolling).

Don't use during competition. Use during training. Train in hard to reach areas. Bribe the testers. Claim a religious opposition to blood testing so they can only test urine.

Alan

I assume much of this is like the NOP stuff from a few years back. There are probably still a handful of people flat-out cheating and microdosing but there is another contingent who trains hard/has the best resources (Nike) money can buy and takes the maximum of every legal drug out there. I'm sure everything is fine tuned to a t. It was pretty clear that Salazar & his athletes live in the grey area. Better than micro dosing I suppose and we still don't know if they do that either but they can likely make time up against people actually doping with their resources.

What do people on here actually take daily/weekly or whatever that's legal? I take iron/vitamin c/vitamin d. maybe every other day.

Devil Dog wrote:

Micro dosing EPO is almost impossible to detect. It made times like 3:26, 7:20, and 12:37 possible. Knowing those two facts, I'd guess that most dopers still use EPO.

Microdosing EPO can be detectable up to 24 hrs now. Anti-doping is currently working on increasing that to 48 hrs. This is probably going to significantly scale back the use of microdosing EPO and shift more toward blood transfusions, if it's not already being done.

NERunner053 wrote:

I assume much of this is like the NOP stuff from a few years back. There are probably still a handful of people flat-out cheating and microdosing but there is another contingent who trains hard/has the best resources (Nike) money can buy and takes the maximum of every legal drug out there. I'm sure everything is fine tuned to a t. It was pretty clear that Salazar & his athletes live in the grey area. Better than micro dosing I suppose and we still don't know if they do that either but they can likely make time up against people actually doping with their resources.

I’ve posted this here before, but the NOP is doing more than grey zone stuff. Rupp was on Prednisone and Testosterone when he was on high school. Sleazy Sal tested out AndroGel on his son to see how much would yield a positive test. He also sent Rupp’s urine to the Mayo Clinic to see if it would test positive for Prednisone when he was unable to get a TUE.

Yeah I just used Salazar & grey area as a generalization. Obviously I think he's shady & crosses the line but they *seem* to be technically pushing the legal boundaries. You can get TUEs for asthma and low t. It's clear that he coaches his athletes on how to do this. But, there is no credible article out there that he is pushing EPO on his athletes right? The rest of it paints him as someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to find an advantage so long as the athlete won't actually get busted. & I assume plenty of coaches operate like this. That earlier article about Hans said Bolt was brought to him at 16 and put on calf's blood.

ponderer of ponds wrote:

Devil Dog wrote:

Micro dosing EPO is almost impossible to detect. It made times like 3:26, 7:20, and 12:37 possible. Knowing those two facts, I'd guess that most dopers still use EPO.

If that's true, how are athletes from the US getting their hands on EPO without leaving a paper trail? Cash payments in an alleyway?

Well, sleazy sal mails the dope to rupp, doorbell mo, hasay, centro and the other NOPers in hollowed out books.

NERunner053 wrote:

Yeah I just used Salazar & grey area as a generalization. Obviously I think he's shady & crosses the line but they *seem* to be technically pushing the legal boundaries. You can get TUEs for asthma and low t. It's clear that he coaches his athletes on how to do this. But, there is no credible article out there that he is pushing EPO on his athletes right? The rest of it paints him as someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to find an advantage so long as the athlete won't actually get busted. & I assume plenty of coaches operate like this. That earlier article about Hans said Bolt was brought to him at 16 and put on calf's blood.

So if tomorrow the IOC, NCAA, WADA all said it was OK to take EPO in any dose do we still consider the athletes that take it "sleazy"?

peptides.