Kipchoge dominance is simply too good to be true

There are no doubts that the GB team has benefited from institutionalised doping, over decades. Ever since the inaugaration of Andy Norman as British athletics supremo and the professionalisation of amateur ranks. Before that, we had the British convicted dope trafficker David Jenkins, peddling all kinds of PEDs nationally and internationally yet athletes were hardly ever caught. Nowadays, doping in Sport is de facto. The debacles related to Team Sky and British Cycling, depict a veritable storyboard of wrongdoing and successful coverups in the plain light of day, right under the noses of anti-doping parties.

African nations do not enjoy the luxury of "inside protection" and this is the only difference.

I don't think cheating in any form produces a fair contest. But it is true that ped's can be found in any sport or competitive activity, from championship darts, to curling and even chess. They give advantage (even though some who come here persistently debt that). And that's why they are used.

Typo above: not debt. Deny.

Runningart2004 wrote:

https://www.si.com/vault/1997/04/14/225484/over-the-edge-aware-that-drug-testing-is-a-sham-athletes-to-rely-more-than-ever-on-banned-performance-enhancers

A scenario, from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other assorted athletes, most of them U.S.

Olympians or aspiring Olympians: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: 1) You

will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance?

One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no.

Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every competition you enter for the next

five years, and then you will die from the side effects of the

substance. Would you take it?

More than half the athletes said yes.

It is sad to think that less than 3% of people have morals and ethics. I would never take anything even if I couldn't be caught and it meant I could win loads of stuff. The 195 who said they would take stuff are nasty under the surface.

Banana Bread wrote:

It is sad to think that less than 3% of people have morals and ethics. I would never take anything even if I couldn't be caught and it meant I could win loads of stuff. The 195 who said they would take stuff are nasty under the surface.

I would never even consider taking peds in a sporting context in which it was against the rules (I have never taking peds anyway, even when I was a gym rat trying to get freakish sized muscles, although that was more because of my dislike for needles and health concerns about steroids).

I find it very difficult to believe that I am in the top 3% of moral human beings. But hey, it's made my day, and perhaps I'll get to heaven after all.

Or maybe I'm just in the top 3% of a group consisting largely of American powerlifters and the like. I find it hard to take that 'study' very seriously. Apparently he conducts it every two years, and it's quite a famous study now, so most athletes he's putting the question too will be familiar with it and aware he's expecting and hoping for a 'yes' answer.

Dr James Ledingham wrote:

There are no doubts that the GB team has benefited from institutionalised doping, over decades. Ever since the inaugaration of Andy Norman as British athletics supremo and the professionalisation of amateur ranks. Before that, we had the British convicted dope trafficker David Jenkins, peddling all kinds of PEDs nationally and internationally yet athletes were hardly ever caught. Nowadays, doping in Sport is de facto. The debacles related to Team Sky and British Cycling, depict a veritable storyboard of wrongdoing and successful coverups in the plain light of day, right under the noses of anti-doping parties.

African nations do not enjoy the luxury of "inside protection" and this is the only difference.

I strongly suspect that your real name is something like Dr Ivan Pedovsky.

Runningart2004 wrote:

You are very naive.

Let’s say no one is taking steroids in the NFL. Now let’s boost an already great athletic Linebacker with steroids for 5 yrs. You don’t think he would be a GOAT? Keep dreaming.

Alan

Maybe you didn't read my post well enough. I said peds can't take a sub-elite NFL or MMA fighter into GOAT realms, not an 'already great athletic linebacker'. However, I agree that NFL might not be the best comparison as I don't know much about that sport or whether fans don't give a hoot about ped usage in it. The comparison with running is still false because NFL players are taking massive hits constantly as well as suffering documented brain damage. NFL fan base is completely different to running as well, it's not a global sport either, and certainly not being dominated by one or two countries in East Africa. The fact that NFL does require a lot of skill (I assume), at least far more than running, would suggest peds are not as effective as in running.

I know far more about MMA and I know that the majority of fans are fairly to heavily against dope cheats (judging by this forum, far more than running fans). Yes, you get a lot of people in the forums like you and others here, making the same equivalent claims such as 'it doesn't matter if Jon Jones is a dirty dope cheat - they're all on something'. But most people do regard his legacy as suspect after failing two (or is it three) doping tests, despite the fact that it's undeniable he has incredible skills that can't be attributed entirely to ped usage.

EPO has been shown (in studies far more scientific than the poll you quoted) to improve the performance of even Kenyan elites by as much as 27 seconds over 3000m. That's around 15 seconds for a mile, and I'm not even going to bother to calculate what it works out for the marathon.

So it doesn't matter to you that if Kipchoge has been doping since his teens (two decades ago) he might not have been able to run under 2:15 for the Marathon, but it's ok. because you read some pop sci author did a survey and 98% of meatheads said they would juice if they wouldn't get caught, so it means we must assume all the clean guys trailing in his wake are in fact dirty as hell.

Cliffs notes -

Kipchoge beat the two EPO Goats (El G and Bekele) as an '18 year old', peaked on the track at 19 when EPO testing started to become available, and went into sharp decline when the ABP was introduced, failing even to make the Kenyan team. He then decides in his 30's to try his hand at the Marathon, which he quickly becomes the GOAT in, running only twice a year, spending most of his year in a country where there is no WADA lab in the entire continent (until last November) and thus almost impossible to form an ABP of him.

Now that WADA has a lab in Nairobi, within months the first big name Kenyan marathoner is busted as a result - the world record holder for the half-marathoner. A week before that, another Kenyan was busted as a result seemingly of the improved ability to form ABPs of Kenyan runners - and it just so happens that that guy (Cyrus Rutto) has the same coach as Kipchoge (Patrick Sang).

Yet anyone who thinks Kipchoge is any more likely to be doped than Callum Hawkins in 7th place is 'naive'.

Yeah, but not as naive as those who still don't realize this place is riddled with Putin trolls, Italian agents, and various others with a 'they all dope so let them get on with it' agenda.

Coevett wrote:

Now that WADA has a lab in Nairobi, within months the first big name Kenyan marathoner is busted as a result - the world record holder for the half-marathoner. A week before that, another Kenyan was busted as a result seemingly of the improved ability to form ABPs of Kenyan runners - and it just so happens that that guy (Cyrus Rutto) has the same coach as Kipchoge (Patrick Sang).

+1

People here keep ignoring that, but the often praised Sang has officially been outed as a coach of a drug cheat. And we know from coach GOAT Canova himself that coaches know whether or not their athletes are clean.

Indurain was the most blatantly doped up endurance sportsman ever. He won hour long TTs in TdF by 3 whole minutes! That's a BIGGER margin than the 10000m Olympic champ lapping the silver medallist (which I'm pretty sure has never happened).

Coevett wrote:

Yeah, but not as naive as those who still don't realize this place is riddled with Putin trolls, Italian agents, and various others with a 'they all dope so let them get on with it' agenda.

I would say most of the pro doping posters are American fans of sports other than running. Or, long shot, Americans who watch top class running but never did it themselves. I doubt any Russians would waste their time here unless its on that enormous Trump thread (which I don't read).

Runningart2004 wrote:

I think it’s incredibly childish and naive to think ANY athlete winning Olympic titles in ANY sport is clean.

So wanting to see evidence before concluding that someone has cheated is childish and naive?

That's a disturbing view you have there, Mr. Runningart2004. Yours must be a gloomy existence.

Troll Identification Instructor wrote:

[quote]Coevett wrote:

I doubt any Russians would waste their time here unless its on that enormous Trump thread (which I don't read).

I don't know about that. At the very least I'm sure some Fancy Bears drop in to see who might make a likely target.

But back to Kipchoge, the Daily Mail has upset all of Kenya for questioning the legend -

And the Daily Mail article that has angered them :

Seems a pretty reasonable piece to me. Looking at the comments by Kenyans under the Star piece makes me re-think how committed to anti-doping the ordinary Kenyan track fans are. Or maybe El K has now got more time to comment underneath such articles under different names.

Taro wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

I think it’s incredibly childish and naive to think ANY athlete winning Olympic titles in ANY sport is clean.

So wanting to see evidence before concluding that someone has cheated is childish and naive?

That's a disturbing view you have there, Mr. Runningart2004. Yours must be a gloomy existence.

I agree. I though Alan was interested in exercise physiology?

But he is naive about drugs or blood boosting having the ability to boost energy output beyond the human limit. The problem we have is that Exercise Physiologists don't understand Biology, Physics or Chemistry in even the most basic terms.

C.R.E.A.M....Cash Rules Everything Around Me. Lol.

None of us have been offered a potential million dollars or more either. Ethics and morals change when offered insane amounts of money.

It’s easy to claim the high ground when it’s not you.

Alan

Jon Orange. wrote:

I agree. I though Alan was interested in exercise physiology?

But he is naive about drugs or blood boosting having the ability to boost energy output beyond the human limit. The problem we have is that Exercise Physiologists don't understand Biology, Physics or Chemistry in even the most basic terms.

Yes, I want hear an exercise physiologist explain in detail how erythropoietin prevents muscle glycogen depletion (citing clinical evidence, of course).

Well, all the money today are in the road races. I mean track is not like it used to be , 10000 are not there again , 5000 also not in good shape. So again all the money are on road races.

I think also that today , yes with an absolute dominance by east africans, the situation in road races is the same or even worse

of the one we had in the 90's in cycling. With a difference.

Elite runners are more protected cos there is all a world that surround them, Managment, Coach, Sponsor ( just think to Nike and all this marketing affair of sub 2hour, shoes 4%, now next% etc.) then consider all the doping problem that are facing those country ( in reality only in Kenya things are moving, thanks to some reportage of some yers ago) bribe , corruption etc . and the all picture is still very dark. How is possible than while in Kenia they found some runners positive

in Ethiopia nothing. This cannot be true! Yesterday on the podium with Kipchoge there was Geremew and Wasihun

both with incredible fast times!

So Bekele and EL G are doped but Kipchoge is clean? You people never cease to amaze me.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

I think it’s incredibly childish and naive to think ANY athlete winning Olympic titles in ANY sport is clean.

Just assume anyone with a chance of winning these big time marathons is doped and it’s a fair race.

No one watching the NFL is online debating whether or not they juice (they do).

Alan

Come on Alan stop obsessing over steroid bulk which is water retention anyway and learn some basic physiology. Please.

All of this doping dogma is just fantastically stupid inane and pseudodscientic. We have oxygen kineticists who don't even know that oxygen uptake is directly correlated to heat production telling us that EPO or blood boosting can effectively break the laws of physics. It's another fukcing industry you fool. Money talks. They will say, write or believe absolutely any amount of nonsense to inflate their status and income. Don't YOU be so naive.