Jgt11 wrote:
What about the Ingebretson training makes it more viable than Tinman for making world class runners? Is it intensity, periodization,etc...?
First it comes to talent! The Ingebrigtsen brothers.......and a sister.... are extremely talented!
All you need to do is 8 x 1k @ 3k pace w/ 1:30 minute rest.
Secondly their training system is very systematic and with often measurement of lactate levels . Total control all the way.
Their father and coach Gjert leaves nothing to chance.
Westside wrote:
Tinman is great and all but remember that he is coaching developmental guys. He’s boasting about coaching a 1:48 guy that focuses on CV training. Don’t you think if any of the truly elite 1500m guys only ran CV that they could still run 1:48. Yes they could. Could they run 1:43, no.
When he threshold/CV trains Drew to 1:44/3:30/13:00 I’ll be very impressed. As of now I think he’s done a great job at getting these guys to a highly aerobically trained state. He’s made his group (made up of 99% development guys) a lot better than they were in college. He’s provided some great insight for how you should be training a large portion of the year.
Tinman may not have any 3:30 or 13:00 guys but the Ingebrigtsen brothers have run 3:30/3:31 and sub-13:20 with the potential for close to 13:00.
Threshold training can clearly make a world class athlete.
400s, 600s, 800s at mile pace with decent rest are a bit more specific to mile training but at the end of the day workouts help you gain fitness, not prove it. I’ve seen many athletes do incredible predictor workouts but fail in races. Ultimately, running 3x800 at mile pace means you can run 3x800 at mile pace and nothing more or less until you run the race. Want to know a specific mile workout? Racing a mile.
To put it in clear terms.. how does Tinman calculate Critical Velocity (CV) ?
% of max heart rate? Or % of VO2 max. If the latter, what's the VO2 max % of max heart rate?
Thanks in advance,
Darren
80% for me of 5k pace would be 6:26, or a minute slower than 10k pace, which I thought was what they trained at.
Tinman says more like 89%, I think. But 89% for me would be 5:47, which is 8 seconds slower than my half marathon pace.
95% of 5k would be 10k pace for me.
No.....it`s not necessary. What you have to do to beat the standing world records of Kenenisa Bekele at 5000/10000m and even the 1500/mile records is to run 20 x 400m at 60-61 sec with rest down to 120 bpm in around 1 min and a feeling of just medium hard and controlled. This in combination with LT-intervals at 65-66 sec / 400m will give the new world records.
Sounds "easy" but it can only be done by a very talented runner of course.
5k pace isnt vVO2 max pace though. Most current literature gives it as the pace you could maintain for 6-8 minutes. This is how Tinman would define it. So you need to use 2k-3k pace. Tinman would define CV pace as the pace you could maintain for 30-35 minutes although he approximates it as 90% of vo2 quite often.
Darren Vandit wrote:
To put it in clear terms.. how does Tinman calculate Critical Velocity (CV) ?
% of max heart rate? Or % of VO2 max. If the latter, what's the VO2 max % of max heart rate?
Thanks in advance,
Darren
He defines it in two ways:
~90% V02 max
Or
30-35 min race pace. The percentage of V02 max is more reliable for elites according to him. Most should follow 30-35 min pace rule. So, for well trained runners it will be in the 10k-12k range. For slower runners it falls in the 8k pace range.
First you have to bake the cake before you can ice it.
Jgt11 wrote:
What about the Ingebretson training makes it more viable than Tinman for making world class runners? Is it intensity, periodization,etc...?
During the hard base weeks they have 2 LT sessions per day 3 times/week. Six threshold sessions in a week is much more than tinman ever prescribes. Again, very similar to what Bakken did. I remember studying what Bakken did during the winter in Oslo. The first day he did 9x2000 on a Woodway treadmill at toppidrettscenter. Later in the day he would do 40 easy laps around a soccer field (streets were covered with ice). In the evening he did 50 meter sprints indoor, hurdle jumps and weight training.
After a day of 2 easy runs he did 14x1000 at LT pace early in the day and 18 km at MP in the evening on the 3rd day.
10k pace for Rupp is 97% of 5k pace. It is just 6.5% slower than his 3k pace.
All these percentages seem low.
zxcvzxcv wrote:
10k pace for Rupp is 97% of 5k pace. It is just 6.5% slower than his 3k pace.
All these percentages seem low.
Tinman has repeatedly said 90% of VO2 max. NOT 90% of VO2 max pace
V02 max pace correlates well with 5k pace.
Tinmans CV pace is often seen as relatively moderate intensity when compared to Vo2max work of Daniels etc.
However, we should not forget that CV pace is right in line with the recommendations of exercise physiologist Seiler who studied the training of a hundreds world class endurance athletes (runner, xc skiers, rowers) etc.
Seiler is a proponent of polarized training with "high" and "low" intensity and not much in the middle. However, his high intensity stuff is more "moderate" than what most would think. He sais that it is probably better to spend more time at 90% instead of less than 95%. World class athletes often spend 40, 50 or even 60 minutes per session in this upper zone.
Not Daniels-style 15 minutes. So to accumulate that much time, the intensity needs to be a tad lower.
(He mentions a rower who repeated a workout for 15 weeks before a gold medal. It consistet of 6 x 10 minutes at 90% of max effort. How specific is that for a six minute race?
The Ingebrigtsens (and Tinmans milers) are doing similar stuff.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Yes, Tinman said that Drew Hunter can run a sub 4 minute mile just based off CV training alone (and he said that all very good runners could do it).
He also does more intense stuff, like 4x1k @CV followed by 4x400 at around mile pace in cut-down fashion (e.g. 61, 60, 58, 57) with full recovery between the 400s (and 200m jogs between the CV).
He also said that the max 30 metres fly sprint speed has zero relevance for the mile time. He is one of a few coaches that never prescribe any all-out efforts in training (many others for example have all-out hill sprints like 10x8s, whereas Tinman sticks with mile pace effort even in hill sprints like 10x30s @mile effort).
No one of the better coaches in the world says that max 30 m fly sprint speed have direct relevance for the mile time.
They are just for the purpose to develop highest possible individual sprint speed. And in combination with correct other training it makes the runner to be the very best miler he/she can be.
You enjoy double contradicting yourself don't you? Speed development has direct relevance for all distances!
It is not specific training. Specific training might be 3 x mile @ goal pace for the 5K.
Chess Player wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
No one of the better coaches in the world says that max 30 m fly sprint speed have direct relevance for the mile time.
They are just for the purpose to develop highest possible individual sprint speed. And in combination with correct other training it makes the runner to be the very best miler he/she can be.
You enjoy double contradicting yourself don't you? Speed development has direct relevance for all distances!
It is not specific training. Specific training might be 3 x mile @ goal pace for the 5K.
Go Tommy 'The Tinman' Schwartz!!!
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/02/meet-elementary-school-pe-teacher-mastermind-behind-americas-greatest-prep-distance-runner/Chess Player wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
No one of the better coaches in the world says that max 30 m fly sprint speed have direct relevance for the mile time.
They are just for the purpose to develop highest possible individual sprint speed. And in combination with correct other training it makes the runner to be the very best miler he/she can be.
You enjoy double contradicting yourself don't you? Speed development has direct relevance for all distances!
It is not specific training. Specific training might be 3 x mile @ goal pace for the 5K.
I don`t double contradicting myself. Pure sprint speed training like 30 m fly all out sprints are in indirect relevance for the mile time and it`s very specific training. Without the other correct done speed stuff and aerobic work it doesn`t matter if the specific individual top sprint speed is reached.
I always assign more than one training pace or intensity; year round. As the bigger competitions near, I assign more work at close to expected race pace.
In the the early and mid-1980s before learning much about the physiology of endurance training, I held a basic belief: get fit for a race lasting about half an hour. (Fast runners cover roughly 10k in that amount of time. Slow runners cover much less distance in that time range.) I noticed, once fit for half-hour racing, it was easy to fine-tune with more race specific work for shorter or longer events. I still believe this concept is true.
Another key concept I learned a long time ago is what I call “keep the ball rolling.” This means avoid extremes that cause injury, illness, and imbalance. *Be consitent in executing well-balanced training; the results will be good and predictable.
Take care,
Tom
Tinman -
It seems most of the men of tinmanelite are sponsored by Adidas. I know none of them make the money Drew does, but are they all on money contracts? Are you the one who signs athletes? Are you a paid adidas coach?
Love what you’re doing; just curious how pro groups work.