Ben Barrows on 4%

I know. Caffeine was on the banned list and has been removed for a reason. Go ahead and down some strychnine if you want, too.

I think it is funny that he is discounting fast courses when his half pr is much better than his other pr’s and was done at Houston which is a fast course.

I think it’s just a wait and see until the next summer olympics and if all the athletes in vaporflies smash through ORs & WRs. Then it might go the way of the slap skate in speed skating and the shark suit in swimming after.

I read this article (with some good links within) recently that discusses the unsporting competitive advantages of the spring plate:

https://sportsscientists.com/2017/03/ban-nike-vaporfly-carbon-fiber-devices-future-performance-credibility/?doing_wp_cron=1546183969.6851289272308349609375

Amateur wrote:

For me, it comes down to choosing to run with the carbon fiber plate vs not, but agree we may be splitting hairs here with shoes of today.

However, It is well known the 4% leads to a faster marathon for many. Yes, caffeine and other gray area legal PEDs help, but the 4% is the only legal PED that affords an external mechanical advantage.

My mind may change when other companies offer the same tech at a lower price point and just about everyone has them, because then what's the point in now? For now, with it only being Nike at a high cost it rubs me the wrong way as kind of lame and reaching for the hobby jogger crowd, myself included. I mean, how many amateur swimmers wore those shark skin full body suits before they were banned?

lol @ caffeine being a ‘grey area PED’.

And how does this article counter the other study that was done that says a majority of the advantage in the 4%s is in the foam and not the tiny plate?

You might as well not wear a shoe with boost or everrun in it either, or else you’re cheating because of the enhanced energy return

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

And how does this article counter the other study that was done that says a majority of the advantage in the 4%s is in the foam and not the tiny plate?

You might as well not wear a shoe with boost or everrun in it either, or else you’re cheating because of the enhanced energy return

Why do people bring up that the majority of the advantage in the 4% is the foam? We don't care if the foam gives more advantage, that is not the problem. The problem is the plate. Take out the plate and we will stop complaining about it. External devices with the purpose of providing a spring should not be allowed. This is exactly what the carbon plate does according to the patent.

The foam might provide greater return for now, but Nike’s patent is for the spring plate not the foam. I don’t think we’ve seen the end all be all for the product design on that component.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20161110&CC=WO&NR=2016179265A1&KC=A1#

Got me there.

Replace caffeine with asthma meds or whatever NOP was all about.

Hypocritical wrote:

I think it is funny that he is discounting fast courses when his half pr is much better than his other pr’s and was done at Houston which is a fast course.

But I'm not discounting fast courses. The debate is whether some of these courses are fair or not.

That Houston race was perfect weather on a fast course with the perfect amount of competition for me, so I was lucky to show up with great fitness for me. It is most definitely better than my other PBs. However, the finish is only a half mile away from the start and elevation change from start to finish is under 10 feet, so I consider it a fair course. Fair and fast are different categories.

The Dubai marathon course is probably close to the maximum combination of both fair and fast. It's laughable how simple the course is. Start and finish probably 0.25 miles away, very little elevation change.

The Kansas City Marathon course is fair but not as fast. Start and finish within 0.25 miles of each other, but there is ~915 feet of both ascending and descending throughout.

The Canyon City Marathon is fast but not fair. It is a point to point course that finishes just over 5000 feet lower than it starts.

See what I am getting at now?

I will continue my boycott of Nike into 2019 because of the Colin Kapernick incident.

I do believe Vapoflys are cheating thus negating Kipchoges WR and others who use them even hobby joggers.

I'm currently wearing Allbirds, but have not run in them yet.

Also, I don't believe it is safe to put too much spring in one's step. Look at what happened to Oscar Pistorius' girlfriend.

S.O.S.W.P.

For the love of God himself, it's not a net downhill of 1000 feet! The race "averages" a drop of just under 13 feet per mile! I'm 6 feet tall, so just over 2 of me spread out over a mile!

Great weather, great competition, etc... Yes it's fast, but it's 26.2 miles and it's not some outrageous amount of net downhill, hardly.

I'm 57 and shooting for a sub 3 hour next year. I'm going there for the weather and competition as I know I'll have company pulling me along. You guys can tell me that I suck and it doesn't count, but it's count to me.

Sage and Ben don't have to count it in their own minds, but I would if I were them.

I have run Houston and CIM(Houston feeling easier because of the lack of hills) and regardless of the start and finish they are both easier courses than most. I just don’t see the point in accepting one and not the other.

Hypocritical wrote:

I have run Houston and CIM(Houston feeling easier because of the lack of hills) and regardless of the start and finish they are both easier courses than most. I just don’t see the point in accepting one and not the other.

Course are allowed to be flat and fast, it happens;). Ben had a great performance at Houston and of course it counts.

John 3:16 wrote:

Sage and Ben don't have to count it in their own minds, but I would if I were them.

They simply aren't as biased by fixation as you are.

You could also argue that Houston is artificially fast because of the greater percentage of concrete. I don't understand splitting all of these hairs. It sounds like the OP overthinks things and just needs to quit thinking so much, turn off the camera and go into marathon training mode.

Roger that .

hobby jogger deluxe wrote:

The foam might provide greater return for now, but Nike’s patent is for the spring plate not the foam. I don’t think we’ve seen the end all be all for the product design on that component.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20161110&CC=WO&NR=2016179265A1&KC=A1#

Touché about the patent and potential future changes to it, BUT, at what point is plastic/non foam, in a show too much? Are Mizuno shoes and their wave plate cheating? Plastic shanks in shoes? Any other element?

SouthernFriedRealist wrote:

You could also argue that Houston is artificially fast because of the greater percentage of concrete.

Okay maybe, but why the f*ck would you?

Yer smart, yup. wrote:

John 3:16 wrote:

Sage and Ben don't have to count it in their own minds, but I would if I were them.

They simply aren't as biased by fixation as you are.

Says the coward behind the keyboard. Feel better now princess? Don't worry honey, you'll break 23 this year for 5k, we know you will.