If Adam Goucher graduated in 2018, would he get a shoe deal?

rojo wrote:

Ok, I kind of like how the OP makes you think by using misleading stats.....

Sounds about right considering your family. Bunch of political insider crooks.

Urbaneteacher wrote:

So I’m a moron.

The thread can be summed up by your first sentence. Got any more really easy questions for us?

>why would he be faster? he literally never approved again for the rest of his life. he maxed out in college.

College: 3:41/7:45/13:31

Pro: 3:36/7:34/13:10

University of Colorado is CU???? Why?

University of Florida - FU?

University of Michigan - MU?

University of California - Cal U?

I’m sure this makes perfect sense to Americans who are known for their logic and questioning abilities. But to foreigners, your system is absolutely absurd.

Because Big 8 Conference. Nebraska is NU, Mizzou is MU, Kansas is KU, Oklahoma is OU, etc. Just how they chose to phrase it at one point.

As for the Lagat comparison, one word: EPO

Urbaneteacher wrote:

University of Colorado is CU???? Why?

University of Florida - FU?

University of Michigan - MU?

University of California - Cal U?

I’m sure this makes perfect sense to Americans who are known for their logic and questioning abilities. But to foreigners, your system is absolutely absurd.

University Coloradoat Boulder uses "CU" all over the website and UC is nowhere to be found...

Urbaneteacher wrote:

So I’m a moron. Fine.

But if he was such a talent, what the hell happened? Lagat goes on to 3:26 and a bunch of medals, Abdi run 27:16 and 2:08... Goucher musters a 6th at World XC and that’s it... and besides crying on the 5,000 Meters dvd, he never runs fast again.

No, my hypothesis is that he was elevated to the pedestal he currently sits on by the book/author which idolized him.

If I’m picking the 25 best collegiate XC/Track runners of the last 25 years, his name doesn’t make the cut.

If I’m picking the best 25 distance runners only by professional careers of the last 25 years, his name still isn’t there.

The book made his legacy, not his running.

The book didn't make his legacy. He made it. He's one of 4 Americans to ever have won Footlocker and NCAA xc. Torres, Ritzenhein, Goucher and Kennedy. That's it, right?

It blows my mind that it sounds like you'd rather be a 13:02 pro like Ben True than Goucher, simply because True ran faster. The fact of the matter is Goucher twice one the race every single guy he was racing wanted to win. Plus Goucher got PAID a ton by Fila when he came out.

He wasn't that great as a pro because he got hurt a lot.

You act like Abdi has done all sorts of crap at the international level. Do you not realize that Goucher 4 times made a global championship final at 5000 (3 Worlds/1 Olympics)?

And do you realize that Goucher according to Tilastopaja owns him 6-3 lifetime in head to head matchups against Abdi? I imagine they are missing some but here is what they have:

Abdi Abdirahman USA Adam Goucher USA

3000m Peregrine Stanford CA 2001-06-09 7:47.63 (7) 7:40.34 (2)

5000m Pre Eugene OR 2003-05-24 13:37.96 (9) 13:35.77 (8)

3000m Oracle Stanford CA 2003-06-07 7:56.59 (9) 7:48.72 (4)

5000m NC Stanford CA 2003-06-20 13:43.81 (7) 13:35.67 (2)

5000m NA Heusden 2003-08-02 13:23.25 (10) 13:49.57 (21)

3000m adidas Carson CA 2005-05-22 8:04.05 (8) 8:07.58 (9)

5000m Norw Union London 2006-07-28 13:18.89 (10) 13:15.94 (9)

Cross Country 12.0km NC Boulder CO 2007-02-10 39:07A (21) 37:35A (2)

10,000m NC Eugene OR 2008-07-04 27:41.89 (1) 27:59.31 (7)

Wins: 3 6

And you don't think Goucher is one of the top 25 US pros of the last 25 years? I bet he is. Globabally, of course not. But maybe for the US.

You asked if we would get a shoe deal and he would. That's different from putting him in the top 25 of the last 25 years for track and xc. He wouldn't make it in the top 25 on the track, but he would be top 25 xc. The topic is whether or not he would get a shoe deal, and the simple fact is that he would. It's a little pointless to bring in the track stuff.

rojo wrote:

Ok, I kind of like how the OP makes you think by using misleading stats but this really is a stupid thread in the end.

Welcome to your website. :)

rojo wrote:

The fact of the matter is Goucher twice one the race

:'D

Urbaneteacher wrote:

University of Colorado is CU???? Why?

Okay now you are just tripling down on stupid.

The book didn't make his legacy. He made it. He's one of 4 Americans to ever have won Footlocker and NCAA xc. Torres, Ritzenhein, Goucher and Kennedy. That's it, right?

+ Molly Seidel on the women's side

why would he be faster? wrote:

why would he be faster? he literally never approved again for the rest of his life. he maxed out in college.

and his era -- late 90s/early 2000s produced all the major WRs. so it's not we can say training has improved since then.

I dont think anyone takes those records seriously, you know with the rampant EPO usage of time. And I think that he would have been faster if he was in college today. College teams fly all over the country to chase fast times in perfectly rabbited races.

urbaneteacher wrote:

If Adam Goucher graduated in 2018, would he get a shoe deal?

College PRs are pretty weak by today’s standards, and even his pro stuff wasn’t all that it has been hyped up to be (except maybe 6th at world XC).

So maybe the question is, with just his PRs would he be considered a top professional today?

3:54/7:43/13:10/27:59

So isn’t his greatness (like Jennings, Fam, and Lincoln) just that he was the best of a very bad late 1990/early 2000s American running culture?

I seem to remember a photo of Goucher beating Lagat in the 98 indoor NCAA 3k championships, I thought in record time. Either 90s Lagat was mediocre or Goucher had some potential for greatness but didn’t completely live up to it

Didn't Goucher beat Culpepper his freshman year? And why bring up Vaughn? He was dragged along to a fast 5k time on the track, never really did anything close to what Goucher did in the CC or on the track in championship races.

Urbaneteacher wrote:

His college PRs were:

3:41/7:45/13:31.

He won 3 track and 1 XC title while at Boulder. If distance running had a draft of top runners to the 4 or 5 major shoe companies, I can’t see him going as a first round pick in any year after 1998.

And by today’s standards those times wouldn’t even get him to in a USATF final without Nike’s help. (Oh wait, they didn’t then either...)

Those college times look very familar.

Grant Fisher 3:41/13:30, No NCAA CC title, 1 NCAA outdoor title (5000m)

Are you saying that Grant doesn't deserve a contract??

postnups wrote:

Yes, and American winning NCAA cross would still get a shoe deal.

***I don't think it's mentioned or mentioned enough: At the 5k Mark Adam Goucher was only a step ahead of Mwangai, Abdi, Lagat. At the Finish he was 23 seconds up on Abdi and 30+ rest of pack so the last 5k against Olympians he pulled away and won by 23 seconds!!! Running 29:26 for a hilly cross country 10k

His college PRs were:

3:41/7:45/13:31.

This would get him some gear for sure, and maybe a spot on a team with living expenses It would not get him a salary today. But college times just weren't nearly as fast back then, and you have to presume that a college Goucher thrown onto UW's indoor track or under the lights at Stanford in recent years would have run more like 13:1_ and 7:40, which would surely get him a comfortable contract.

I think Running with Buffalos surely made Goucher a legend. Now he is still relevant given he and his wife's stature in the running community and their highly publicized battle with one of the most successful coaches in running history.

urbaneteacher wrote:

If Adam Goucher graduated in 2018, would he get a shoe deal?

College PRs are pretty weak by today’s standards, and even his pro stuff wasn’t all that it has been hyped up to be (except maybe 6th at world XC).

So maybe the question is, with just his PRs would he be considered a top professional today?

3:54/7:43/13:10/27:59

So isn’t his greatness (like Jennings, Fam, and Lincoln) just that he was the best of a very bad late 1990/early 2000s American running culture?

He won the indoor 3k in an NCAA record 7:46. He won two other NCAA titles. He would have done a similar thing if he was competing now. Many people have pointed out how dumb this premise is, only one pointed out his all-time great type record in NCAA Cross. 4 top 10s in a row. Seriously good.

I think only Sullivan and Kennedy have done that. Lindgren was not allowed to run as a frosh. Pre took '72 off for the Olympics. Anybody know who ran top 10 four straight years?

Maybe if he had gotten on the "Lagat Protocol" he would have been even better from 2000-2006? Maybe he would have been able to avoid some of those injuries and maybe he would have lasted until 2008 or 2012? But he would have gotten a shoe contract in any era.