JasonDoesAsia/JK thread

I have been runnnig for a while. Currently, I have no time to double. I am training for a marathon (current PR 2:30). Should I run 75 to 90 minutes everyday to keep my mileage up? What about speed workouts? I have no time to go to a track and do repeats...

Thanks for your input.

JK,

If you get the time, it would be appreciated if you could go into further detail in regards to what you believe to be correct breathing mechanics. The only information that i've found on this topic is dispersed through eastern mystics that laugh at the desires we have for athletic achievement. It's baffling that so little heed is payed to the breath, which if taken away leaves a man with the ability to run no more than 200 meters in any direction.

JK,

What effect does running the long run at Aerobic conditioning pace as opposed to aerobic recovery pace have on the mitochondrial development and capilarization? I am currently of the belief that (atleast with more developed athletes, i.e. have been running for several years and have run several thousand miles) you get the most bang for your buck running your long run at aerobic conditioning pace.

JK wrote: ?I believe a few other studies (can't remember them off hand) have shown that increases in mitochondrial density are most profound when training between 65% and 70% of heart rate reserve, which would correspond to roughly 74% to 79% of VO2max.?

One problem with quoting such studies (and I?m not criticising JK, he will probably agree with what I am saying) is that you always have to ask, ?what level were the runners in that study that showed improvement with such a training program?? It will make sense that the stimulus intensity for improvement will vary with initial fitness level. Beginners show improvement with almost any exercise at all, experienced vets will not show improvement with low intensity running (unless they go a very long way), although this might be valuable for maintenance or recovery.

So whereas it is true that all runners should begin at this ?low? intensity (and a surprising number of runners skip this stage and forever after wonder why their performance plateaued earlier than it should), the real stimulus to peripheral development is to train at the running pace just prior to an increase in blood lactate. The intensity here is crucial.

The pace at which this occurs can be improved substantially with training. So much so that when Paula says she scoots along at 6.00m/m, we can be pretty confident (and she will know for sure) that her blood lactate is around 1.2-1.7mM if not lower. (I don?t presume to know any more about Paula?s training than anyone here. But we can logical deduce some things).

Most of the cool dudes on here though, who claim to run at 6.00m/m on their easy/steady runs, will be nowhere near as comfortable. Which is why Paula?s rate of speed loss is very little as she moves up in distance. Roughly these are as follows: 3k-67/lap; 10k-72/lap; marathon (equiv)-78/lap. Only extremely well trained males could hope to match those lap times over the whole range of distances.

So, why the 1.2-1.7mM? Well, with such low values, Paula can be sure that her aerobic system is supplying all the energy required for the particular pace. Which is perfect, because that is the energy system she is trying to train on such runs.

If one of us were running alongside her, even with similar HR values, yet had a lactate of 3.5-6.0mM (very possible), then despite all our protestations and macho crap about how good we were feeling, we can be sure that if we go long enough, we will crash long before Paula.

Even if we manage to complete that particular training run with her, her peripheral aerobic development will have been optimal while ours will have been disastrous and probably require a recovery the next day.

HRs, on their own, don?t really tell the complete picture. Consider some of the ?in-sight? articles we often read of Kenyans training at 80-90% of max HR. This might even be true, but instead of trying to copy those HR values in our training, it would make more sense to run at the Kenyans? blood lactate values (which are low, according to the same articles).

So, with optimal training, it is possible (in time) to be able to run at higher HR values with commensurate low lactate values. This is what allows the studs to run stunning marathon times.

Note also that such training, as a by-product, increases fuel economy, allowing you to burn lipids rather than CHO. This offers a number of advantages, not only in the marathon. It also means that you can train at this intensity more regularly, since there is no need for a long CHO replacement period (48+ hours) in your leg muscles. Since you are fuel-economical, 100+ mpw becomes more possible without breakdown.

Although in time this training pace can become fast, it is never really hard. A large percentage of it will always be slower than marathon pace, but not by much. If we consider that KK?s marathon pace is 4.46m/m, then a sub-LT run at 5.10m/m is no big deal for him in terms of effort, and is a pace he will be able to hit quite regularly in his training week.

So, why do the Japanese run such slow paces as the major part of their training?

I will say, up front, that I have no experience of such Japanese training. It may be that it is psychologically ?not agreeable? with Western minds (Legalizit will back me on this). I am interested to hear if Jason can deal with the boredom of 100+ such miles per week. Since he appears to have a ?low-boredom? threshold, he may not find it easy. Hope he keeps us updated.

Well, to understand it better, and not just to say it is for the tendons/ligaments infrastructure, we only have to look to Snell?s research which showed that even the fast fibres are recruited (and thereby trained under fully-aerobic conditions) when the slower fibres become fuel-exhausted. (see also the study of Green and Patla above, from ET).

Assuming this to be the prime cause of the Japanese peripheral aerobic development (which undoubtedly works), then the athlete must undertake a lot of miles, since progressive fibre-exhaustion is required. That?s the physiological explanation. The coaching schedule might also be coupled with a diet regimen that restricts CHO to a certain extent to ?hurry? this exhaustion. On this latter point I am not sure, but it seems logical. Jason might tell us more.

Notice that Jason complained in one post that 8.00m/m were tough. The reason for this will be that he will not be eating sufficient CHO each day to completely refuel his muscles for the next day?s mega-mileage runs. If he continues with this schedule, he will become (in time) progressively more economical (and burn more fat), and should find the mileage easier to deal with. But remember, he is required to almost run to fuel exhaustion on a regular basis for the program to work.

Slow Japanese-type training aimed at peripheral development absolutely requires mega-mileage. It will not work to anything like the same extent on a 40-50mpw (to answer the original question).

To continue to answer the ?miler? question. Such training is not what a miler would want. A miler absolutely needs to be able to create high lactate values for speed. A miler who can only achieve a maximum of 8-10mM (?true? marathon/distance runner max) would be nowhere in a mile race against guys who can unleash 15mM+ of energy. A miler does not want to convert the IIb fibres. Although he should train to maximally oxidise the type I and type IIa (see Lydiard?s marathon-type training plus hills and speed, for a potent mix).

That such training is so widespread and successful in Japan (and their relative lack of fast milers) may lie in their genetic make-up. It may be that the general Japanese slow/fast mix is more naturally akin to what we would call the ?natural? distance runner (80%-20%) than that of an average Western adult (50%-50%). Their low-meat protein diet may also be a factor in a reduced percentage of fast fibres. I don?t know. Obviously a high natural percentage of slow fibres is almost mandatory for long distance success.

I?m only speculating here, but again, these seem logical premises and worthy of study (although such genetic topics can be sensitive).

One main advantage of the Japanese system that I can see, is that it is almost impossible to overtrain. Unless a runner has increased his weekly mileage too rapidly, the prime cause of overtraining is generally too high intensity. This is avoided with the Japanese way of training. So there will be fewer cases of burn-out. If the athlete can overcome the banality of the daily mileage (and it may suit the more patient Oriental mind here ? ask Legalizit), then if they have a suitable slow/fast muscle fibre mix, it seems almost inevitable they will achieve long distance success.

A disadvantage to the Western system? It is too easy to overtrain; you really need to know/monitor what you are doing.

Apologies for the long post. Enjoyed the topic.

Hadd, On that awful 20km yesterday I had just gotten off a 12 hour ride on a Chinese bus with one hour sleep, straight into cold weather and 10000 feet altitude, the day after a 20miler with hill repeats in the middle. So, I think you can understand why the 20km was tough!!!

Today I ran a total of 59km, every step of it at 10000feet altitude, sopping wet tracksuit and sopping wet shoes....FELT DAMN GOOD!!!

I am eating a lot of Tibetan bread (like Nan bread but thicker) and rice, milk, sweet tea and apples. My usual high performance diet!

jason

Jason,

I understand entirely how that 20km was tough. Now, even more so with the travel problems beforehand.

I know what you mean about "feel(ing) damn good" after your 59k run. Aerobically comfortable long runs can be immensely satisfying.

Glad you have found a proven program that seems to be working for you. You have ignited a ton of interest here with your recent posts. I'm sure many will be watching your progress and subsequent races with interest.

A lot of my post is (as I admitted) logical speculation, you are the one giving us the real "gen". Looking forward to your continued postings.

Keep up the eating. Glad to see you are on very high carbos. But the problem here is not "eat sweeter", but one of time. Your body will find it tough to consume replacement carbos in the short time you have before your next long run. Costill did a lot of work on this way back in the 70s.

Watch your health and weight and don't try to do too much mileage too soon. If this works for you, you have another 2 years before 2004. Good luck.

59 k = 36 miles for 1 day at

10,000 feet altitude.

How many k's for a 7 day period?

I am up to 230km for the last 6 days alone. I have a day and a half left. My goal is 280km for the week. (all at 2000-3200 meters in China in rainy season).

Hadd, my running yesterday was not 59km on one run, it was 34km in the morning about 4;00/km then in the afternoon I just went crazy and did 25km at 3;31/km average. I had a nice section from 15-20km on a flat area with a slight tail wind and did 16;14 for 5km....FELT EASY. All of this on a hard road at 10000feet and a cold rain. Full tracksuit and shoes totally sopping wet.

This morning I did 20km realllllyyyy ssslllllloooow. Breathing and heart rate are fine, legs are tired. Had a nice breakfast of Tibetan steamed bread, tea, a pear and a big bowl of rice on which I poured a bottle of fresh Yak milk and some sugar. Last night I had rice and a bit of Yak meat.

Jason

The best times to eat (you probably already know this) are within 30 mins of the end of yr run, and again within 2 hrs of the end of the run.

Without getting too anal, try and eat yr weight in kg as grams of carbohydrate: eg; you weight 70kg, eat 70 grams CHO at each of these two "meals". (note: 1kg = 2.2 lbs)

The first one might be mostly liquid (your sweet tea, Yak milk and sugar over rice, or "wet" fruit) since some runners cannot stomach a lot of heavy food so soon after running. The second "meal" can be more solid food.

Like this:

finish run at 8am

before 8.30am consume(drink/eat) 70 gms CHO (for a 70kg runner)

Before 10am consume(drink/eat) 70 gms CHO (for a 70kg runner)

Rest of day eat as normal. Drink a lot of liquid.

Try and repeat procedure after second run of the day (although second meal can be too late at night to want to eat).

This is the best eating procedure to maximally reload your running muscles and be able to continue a high mileage schedule.

Yr 25k at 3.30/km sounds good since it came "on its own".

Keep it up.

I keep having this image of you in some barn at 10,000' eating among the straw with the yokels while getting Yak milk straight from the teat...

Have you got any pix? Can you post them?

Hadd, it tastes straight outta the teat!

Zhongdian is a cool town, but pretty rough. Lots of commerce and obviously, internet cafes. The main attraction is the Tibetan way of life and interesting people, plus miles and miles of road at 3200 meters alt.

Just had dinner: Big bowl of rice, small bottle of Yak milk, some raw green vegetables, a fried egg and a few chunks of leftover bread dipped in sweetened condensed milk.

Today I was "only" able to complete 33km of jogging, 20 km this morning and then 13km this afternoon. After yesterday's 59km, it figures.

Hadd, please check your email. I think that I remember your hotmail address.

jason

Man, I just want Jason's sex life. That's all I can really say.

Bro, you can always have sex. But you can't always run 156

miles at 6,000 to 10,000 feet. That will put extra

capillaries in your penis.

I think that I am getting soft-hearted. I have broken too many gentle Asian hearts in Japan/Thailand and it makes me feel sad.....I dont think you want my sex life.

BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT YOU WISH FOR.....YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT!

I am actually turning DOWN some fine women these days. I dont want to break their hearts. Right now I am working on developing a relationship with a beautiful individual...the arrangement would be perfect for all my needs if it worked out....we'll see.

Up here in Zhongdian there are some cool-looking countrygirls, all Tibetan, but I am just RUNNNAAAANNG!!!

There is apparently a LOT of rented action here in Zhongdian, but given the fact that I am not hurting for it, and HIV is rapant in Yunnan province, it is definitely no go.

156 miles for the last week is the most that I have ever done in one week in my life. (Previous best about 140 back in college).

Given my advanced age (33 going on 34 going on 17), some extra penile cappilarization would be great, but this high mileage is making the damned thing smaller!!! Haven't even whacked-off in THREE DAYS!!!

Jason

Thanx JK, you the man.

"...I am working on developing a relationship with a beautiful individual...the arrangement would be perfect for all my needs if it worked out....we'll see." - AsiaJason

Unbelievable... Jason's in love... Should be a Letsrun Exclusive.. You sure you're OK, man.

.....In Love, or maybe LUST!

I fully agree with training long distances even for mid-distance races. Running is a sport of delayed gratification, and America is an impatient country. This is why we have no big shots in the distance races anymore.