Paula probably doesn't need a whole cadre of male accompanists to run high 2:15. There will be plenty of guys falling off 2:12 pace for her to pick off at the end. What London seems to be doing more than anything is cheapening the magnitude of what Paula can accomplish legitimately on her own.
What's next? Paula racing against a relay team of 26 5:15 high school freshman milers?
PR, (ironic initials for this thread, by the way)
I'm working from the assumption that London has broken out the elite women into a separate group to generate an exciting and TV friendly women's race.
I personally think Paula's got the 'nads to pull off another record without a pacer, but there's no doubt she's got better odds with one. In this, I can see where you're all coming from. A record generated under these circumstances could be considered tainted. Pacers for the women - bad for the sport.
Perhaps, as someone else suggested, the answer is to put the elite women back in with the main field. Unfortunately, that would mean a much less TV friednly race. Also bad for the sport. (Paula wouldn't be negotiating much traffic)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't want to start a whole new debate here, but there are some real differences between road races and track or XC events. I don't think wejo's involvement with Paula at Chicago will have a trickle-down effect into T&F. Having said that, if a women were to enter a race with a co-ed field and do better because of better competition, I think her mark should stand. Why not? She would have run it.
I watched last year's Flora London Marathon live on TV and it was magnificent to see Paula running way out in front all by herself. I think it is a great idea to have the women (or at least the elite women) start ahead of the men so they have their own race. London's compromise (women start early but have male pacers) is sort of the worst of both worlds.
The problem, it seems, is that lots of people quite logically see Paula's Chicago performance as the world record, and that world records make for great press. Since Flora London wants to get that same kind of press, there is an enormous incentive for them to optimize the situation for Paula.
I think the vastly preferable solution would be to contract a female pacer who can run a 1:07:30 half to do so (might need 2 because it is such a tough time even for elite women). Problem: there's not very many such women. Possible solution: offer a buttload of money. Why not adopt that solution? Because it's a lot cheaper to hire a guy who can run that pace.
What could be done to change the incentive structure faced by the Flora London organizers? If the IAAF formally decided that world bests they recognize must be run in a single-gender race, that would probably be a pretty good step in the right direction. It might help convince other marathon organizers to follow London's example and let the elite women start half an hour earlier.
The optimal time for the IAAF to rule this way would have been last year after Paula's run, since they had a time run in a women's only race that was a mere 10 seconds behind the mixed-race world's best. It's harder to do so now, but still not too tough, since the holder of both world's bests is the same. If the 2 bests grow further apart, and/or become held by 2 different athletes, it becomes more difficult to do so.
Another possibility would be for Flora London to add an elite women's half marathon with real prize money that starts with the marathon start and finishes at the halfway point. This would probably be more expensive than hiring two female rabbits, but it might make for good TV too. I don't know what the formal rules regarding such an approach and record-setting are.
Fact is, in 2002 only two women ran under 68 mins for the half marathon ( Paula didn't run one by itself - but did run 67.51 for her second half in London). The male runners usually have pace makers to 16 miles, why should women be penalised in this situation ??
The odd thing about pacemakers is - why do they have to start the race? Why not join in half way? It's hypocritical really. Back in the days when any form of pace making wasn't allowed the rabbits had to at least 'pretend' they were competing. If we're all going get obsessed about WRs there may as well be a relay of runners helping to the guys (and girls) through to fast times.
maurits wrote:
I think the vastly preferable solution would be to contract a female pacer who can run a 1:07:30 half to do so (might need 2 because it is such a tough time even for elite women). Problem: there's not very many such women. Possible solution: offer a buttload of money. Why not adopt that solution? Because it's a lot cheaper to hire a guy who can run that pace.
This is the all time list of sub 1:07:30 women runners from the IAAF site
1:06:43 Masako Chiba JPN 1 Tokyo 19 01 1997
1:06:44 Elana Meyer RSA 1 Tokyo 15 01 1999
1:06:47 Paula Radcliffe GBR 1 Bristol 07 10 2001
1:06:49 Esther Wanjiru KEN 2 Tokyo 15 01 1999
1:06:56 Lornah Kiplagat KEN 1 Den Haag 25 03 2000
1:07:07 Paula Radcliffe 1 South Shields 22 10 2000
1:07:11 Liz McColgan GBR 1 Tokyo 26 01 1992
1:07:22 Elana Meyer 1 Tokyo 24 01 1993
1:07:29 Elana Meyer 1 Kyoto 08 03 1998
Looking at this list to see who could produce an even paced 1:07:30 or 1:07:45 to order in 2003, I can see only one person I would hire, unfortunately for the London marathon that person is Paula.
maurits wrote:
I think the vastly preferable solution would be to contract a female pacer who can run a 1:07:30 half to do so (might need 2 because it is such a tough time even for elite women). Problem: there's not very many such women. Possible solution: offer a buttload of money. Why not adopt that solution? Because it's a lot cheaper to hire a guy who can run that pace.
The following list is the all time list of women under 1;07:30 from the IAAF site.
1:06:43 Masako Chiba JPN 1 Tokyo 19 01 1997
1:06:44 Elana Meyer RSA 1 Tokyo 15 01 1999
1:06:47 Paula Radcliffe GBR 1 Bristol 07 10 2001
1:06:49 Esther Wanjiru KEN 2 Tokyo 15 01 1999
1:06:56 Lornah Kiplagat KEN 1 Den Haag 25 03 2000
1:07:07 Paula Radcliffe 1 South Shields 22 10 2000
1:07:11 Liz McColgan GBR 1 Tokyo 26 01 1992
1:07:22 Elana Meyer 1 Tokyo 24 01 1993
1:07:29 Elana Meyer 1 Kyoto 08 03 1998
Looking at this list to see who could be relied on to run an even paced 1:07:30 or 1:07:45 to order, in 2003, I can see only one woman I woud hire. Unfortunately for the London marathon organisers that woman is Paula.
(Chiba is in good form but she has not run a fast half marathon for six years)
Its funny how one race tries to bend over backwards for a runner and another tries so hard to almost handicap another. NYC wouldn't allow Marla Runyan's escort to give her splits or hand her water at aid stations. Certainly small conveniences that wouldn't have been an unfair advantage but were not allowed to Marla.
I agree now that World Records (instead of World Bests)are recognized on the roads, the roads should have to abide by the sames rules as the track races.
If she gets it, put an asterisk next to it.
Here are the top twenty women's marathon results. Which ones were run in womens' only fields and therefore shouldn't have an asterix? I may be wrong, but I'm guessing the only one would be Paula's debut at London.
1 2:17:18 Radcliffe, Paula GBR Chicago 1 10/13/02
2 2:18:47 N'dereba, Catherine KEN Chicago 1 10/7/01
3 2:18:56 Radcliffe, Paula GBR London 1 4/14/02
4 2:19:26 N'dereba, Catherine KEN Chicago 2 10/13/02
5 2:19:46 Takahashi, Naoko JPN Berlin 1 9/30/01
6 2:20:23 Yanan, Wei CHN Beijing 1 10/20/02
7 2:20:43 Loroupe, Tegla KEN Berlin 1 9/26/99
7 2:20:43 Okayo, Margaret KEN Boston 1 4/15/02
9 2:20:47 Loroupe, Tegla KEN Rotterdam 1 4/19/98
10 2:21:06 Kristiansen, Ingrid NOR London 1 4/21/85
11 2:21:12 N'dereba, Catherine KEN Boston 2 4/15/02
12 2:21:21 Yingjie, Sun CHN Beijing 2 10/20/02
12 2:21:21 Benoit, Joan USA Chicago 1 10/20/85
14 2:21:22 Shibui, Yoko JPN Chicago 3 10/13/02
15 2:21:31 Zakharova, Svetlana RUS Chicago 4 10/13/02
16 2:21:33 N'dereba, Catherine KEN Chicago 1 10/22/00
17 2:21:45 Pippig, Uta GER Boston 1 4/18/94
18 2:21:47 Takahashi, Naoko JPN Bangkok 1 12/6/98
19 2:21:49 Takahashi, Naoko JPN Berlin 1 9/29/02
20 2:22:07 Loroupe, Tegla KEN Rotterdam 1 4/20/97
1) legal ways of rabbiting include following competitors that are entered in the race. On the track, you cannot be paced by a lapped runner. Men cannot be entered in a women's race. If there is a mixed race then there is nothing stopping a woman from following a man.
London's version would not be legal.
2) Who cares. It is till a great accomplishment to run fast whether you are following someone or not.
"This could open a Pandora's Box that would effectively kill competition in women's track. The logical next steps are allowing drugs or turning Golden League into "Man vs. Beast II".
Hey...this is road running, where women's WR's have been set in mixed races almost since day 1. Does everyone on the board want to go back & throw out Joanie's time from Boston '83 when Kevin Ryan "paced" HER? Or every one of Grete's times from NYC, because men broke the wind for her? Fact is, how many records in women's road racing have really been set in women's only races? Not many...and as several others on here have said, the MEN have paid rabbits to keep pace through certain mile points, and no one on here is bashing Khalid, Tergat, or Geb for that. These people have to get the job done with thier own legs....big f***in' deal if some second level male runner is next to them....lighten up, dudes.
"Go Paula GO!!!!"