ghost of el K: 3rd fastest all time road 10k, clearly not elite.
ghost of Canova: 3rd fastest all time road 10k, clearly not properly trained.
ghost of JonO: 3rd fastest all time road 10k, clearly placebo as epo doesn't work. She would have to break the laws of physics.
I believe EPO is a placebo, but then again, I work in the pharma industry.
How to use one's brain for intelligent thinking wrote:
That is not just true of elite athletes, but of anyone.
Synthetic EPO, as with almost all medications, is simply another placebo scam that does nothing particularly useful to anyone.
Your handle and your post don't align.
No you don't.
No. EPO makes you slower. Look at Jeptoo (clean 2:18, doped 2:24). Kiprop (clean 3:26, dirty 3:33), and now Jepchumba (clean 1:05, dirty 1:06). This proves that she only microdosed. The rest is mythology and the letsrun non-experts' assumptions.
kljk wrote:
I believe EPO is a placebo, but then again, I work in the pharma industry.
How to use one's brain for intelligent thinking wrote:
Oh Please wrote:
Canova, if I have properly understood him, says that elite athletes who are PROPERLY trained have no other room for improvement, rendering EPO uneffective for them. That is not to say that those that are lesser trained cannot also take a shortcut to that level via EPO.
That is not just true of elite athletes, but of anyone.
Synthetic EPO, as with almost all medications, is simply another placebo scam that does nothing particularly useful to anyone.
Sure, ok jon.
rekrunnr wrote:
No. EPO makes you slower. Look at Jeptoo (clean 2:18, doped 2:24). Kiprop (clean 3:26, dirty 3:33), and now Jepchumba (clean 1:05, dirty 1:06).
This proves that she only microdosed. The rest is mythology and the letsrun non-experts' assumptions.
kljk wrote:
I believe EPO is a placebo, but then again, I work in the pharma industry.
Say no Mo, bro
This is bad. She was just challenging Jocelyn for the half marathon record. This makes me believe that Jocelyn, Pres Jipchirchir, and even Caroline Kipkirui might be dirty.
This is another reason why I believe Kipchoge isn't clean.
These are high profile kenyans who are testing positive. Might as well throw Beatrice in the mix as well.
Big angus wrote:
[quote]Oh Please wrote:
This is of course a No-True-Scotsman fallacy by Canova. “Oh, the EPO only worked on Xxxx because he wasn’t trained properly. My athletes are trained properly and would receive no benefit from EPO”
Only if you accept the premise that the epo worked even without the training.
The claim that epo enhances exercise performance at marathon pace doesn't make sense. Extra RBC's to carry more oxygen and co2 around between muscle and lungs are doing nothing when consumption is low.
Shifting burden fallacy allows claims that epo has an effect at such submaximal effort to go unproven. Explain how that happens rather than pointing out busts of elite runners, then assuming that other (including better, e.g. Kipchoge) elites are using epo too. It's not proven.
Extra RBC's do work at middle distance efforts when your gas-exchange levels are high, and cycling and skiing where long-distance events are like interval workouts of maximal effort and easy effort. But a marathoner never approaches that level except maybe the last 400m or so.
Indirectly, epo resulting in higher blood volume may delay dehydration, but you don't need a drug for that, just train in the heat. If that's Canova's "method" then he's right, but it works for everyone, not just elites. I speculate that epo's effect on marathon, if any, is actually like steroids - a recovery enhancement to allow heavier training without inducing anemia.
Bad Wigins wrote:
Big angus wrote:
[quote]Oh Please wrote:
This is of course a No-True-Scotsman fallacy by Canova. “Oh, the EPO only worked on Xxxx because he wasn’t trained properly. My athletes are trained properly and would receive no benefit from EPO”
Only if you accept the premise that the epo worked even without the training.
The claim that epo enhances exercise performance at marathon pace doesn't make sense. Extra RBC's to carry more oxygen and co2 around between muscle and lungs are doing nothing when consumption is low.
Shifting burden fallacy allows claims that epo has an effect at such submaximal effort to go unproven. Explain how that happens rather than pointing out busts of elite runners, then assuming that other (including better, e.g. Kipchoge) elites are using epo too. It's not proven.
Extra RBC's do work at middle distance efforts when your gas-exchange levels are high, and cycling and skiing where long-distance events are like interval workouts of maximal effort and easy effort. But a marathoner never approaches that level except maybe the last 400m or so.
Indirectly, epo resulting in higher blood volume may delay dehydration, but you don't need a drug for that, just train in the heat. If that's Canova's "method" then he's right, but it works for everyone, not just elites. I speculate that epo's effect on marathon, if any, is actually like steroids - a recovery enhancement to allow heavier training without inducing anemia.
you must have missed it, multiple times posted....but anyways
rhEPO, in recent studies have shown that they SIGNIFICANTLY increase the size and number of mitochondria....now you tell me, or anyone else on here who thinks they are smarter than jonO.....what is more important in the aerobic respitory system
1) more rbcs?
or
2) more and larger mitochondria?
here is a simple explanation. with more and larger mitochondria, a greater % of the available 02 floating in the blood is absorbed into the cell for cellular function, the most important in any exercise is that of combining 02 with glucose to created ATP. the other bonus of more and larger mitochondria is the expulsion of C02 from the cell, and a greater capacity to store Calcium, which is ESSENTIAL in the contraction/extension of muscles.
but no lets keep talking about how EPO only raises the rbc a little bit....with more mitochondria using more of the available 02, this can keep an athlete from going passed the aerobic/anaerobic threshold. but im sure all you super coaches on here dont need me to remind you of that....sh*t the whole purpose of AT practices is to get your body used to red lining for as long as possible in hopes you increase your tolerance level. the man (or woman) who can run the longest at the fastest rate of speed at or below the AT level will win...like holy sh*t people act like coaching is some huge mind blowing thing.
you train base endurance up to 6 weeks, then 3, 3-4 weeks of differing energy systems, with 2-3 weeks of peaking...rest then start over.
then you have coaches claim they have some "new" secret in training, some new philosophy, some new method...blah blah blah
how long have we known about periodization? how long have we known about training at altitude? how long have we known about interval training? how long have coaches been saying they have the newest trick and its prob a PED instead?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299978/Yep, all the great running animals have mitochondria bursting from their cells and VO2 numbers double(or more) that of humans AND they have springier feet.
But we only need the springy feet to run better. We're special like that.
interesting...
2:01.39 with a 4% reduction would give you 2:06:30
pretty close to the WR or 1988
2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo Ethiopia April 17, 1988 Rotterdam Marathon...and according to all those who mock me, well before EPO hit the scene...
Oh Please wrote:
George213 wrote:
An Interesting comment from Sara Hall.
@SaraHall3
2h2 hours ago
More
Replying to @d9monti
Went from 69 min to 65 min in the half in 2016– ??
So, EPO works on top athletes after all?
Funny, but Canova, if I have properly understood him, says that elite athletes who are PROPERLY trained have no other room for improvement, rendering EPO uneffective for them. That is not to say that those that are lesser trained cannot also take a shortcut to that level via EPO.
Yea, with all due respect, Canova isn’t a chemist or trained in medicine so his opinions regarding chemicals and their interactions with the body should be taken with a grain of salt...
^like
Probghorn Boy wrote:
Yep, all the great running animals have mitochondria bursting from their cells and VO2 numbers double(or more) that of humans AND they have springier feet.
But we only need the springy feet to run better. We're special like that.
you do have a point
"To support this oxygen consumption Lindstedt et al. showed that, compared to goats, pronghorn have a greater capacity for oxygen diffusion across the lung, a greater capacity to deliver oxygen to muscles, and a greater total volume of mitochondria in skeletal muscle (Lindstedt et al., 1991).
and lots of stuff on this study was surely done by jon0, since its all about thermoregulation
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/14/2444Oh Please wrote:
George213 wrote:
An Interesting comment from Sara Hall.
@SaraHall3
2h2 hours ago
More
Replying to @d9monti
Went from 69 min to 65 min in the half in 2016– ??
So, EPO works on top athletes after all?
Funny, but Canova, if I have properly understood him, says that elite athletes who are PROPERLY trained have no other room for improvement, rendering EPO uneffective for them. That is not to say that those that are lesser trained cannot also take a shortcut to that level via EPO.
But he's the only coach that's saying that....why? ?
This news is nearly 2 months old.
m!ndweak wrote:
and lots of stuff on this study was surely done by jon0, since its all about thermoregulation
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/14/2444
His study was hacked! He has been in the lab after all.
Probably not actually.
m!ndweak wrote:
well sara hall is slightly off,
its 69:29 to 65:51 in a year
so the actually % gain was
5.22% gain...still not too shabby.....i wonder where rekrunner will claim the less than 1% happened
But remember placebo is 1.2% on 39 min 10 km runners.