He's not insane. You just need to learn how to be flexible with your training.
He's not insane. You just need to learn how to be flexible with your training.
Stopcecil! wrote:
He's not insane. You just need to learn how to be flexible with your training.
So you're saying on a 70 mile week it's smart to do a 17 mile run with 10 miles at tempo pace?
my legs are tired :( wrote:
brain dead genius wrote:
You are overestimating your M and T paces and aren't as fit as you think.
My 10k pace is 6:05, my half marathon pace is 6:40. I do T at 6:25.
I know I have a lack of endurance, that is why i'm doing 6 months of marathon training. I'm running more miles, many aerobically, than I ever have in my life.
Interesting. My 10k is 6:00; HM is 6:10 but my T is 6:10-6:20! ?
Bob And curry wrote:
my legs are tired :( wrote:
My 10k pace is 6:05, my half marathon pace is 6:40. I do T at 6:25.
I know I have a lack of endurance, that is why i'm doing 6 months of marathon training. I'm running more miles, many aerobically, than I ever have in my life.
Interesting. My 10k is 6:00; HM is 6:10 but my T is 6:10-6:20! ?
I was told tempo is slower than 10k and faster than half marathon.
my legs are tired :( wrote:
Bob And curry wrote:
Interesting. My 10k is 6:00; HM is 6:10 but my T is 6:10-6:20! ?
I was told tempo is slower than 10k and faster than half marathon.
In training I go with feel for T. If I ran a HM tomorrow (mid-plan) it wouldn’t be at 6:10! Rested and tapered with the right shoes...then that’s different...
OP - now you're not making any sense. You ran a 1:25 half but then state that your HM pace is 6:40 (it's not).
You need to find a T pace that equates to your current fitness. You've given paces all over the place. Do you have any idea what your current fitness is? What was the last race you ran within the last 3 months?
I ran a 5k on the 4th of july, 85 degrees humid as hell, 17:47.
Sorry I guess my hm was 6:30 pace. It's really hard to tell paces because I live in a very hilly area. Again that was over a year ago though and I've increased my mileage significantly.
I think my first post came off wrong. Up until now I've been feeling great, the hard runs are hard but I'm bouncing back in time for the next one. I'm hitting all the splits each time. Haven't missed a work out (except 4th of july).
I'm just saying on the 4th 70 mile week, three days after 12 marathon miles in a 17 mile run, i'm supposed to do 17 miles with 10 at tempo?
that's BRUTAL
my legs are tired :( wrote:
Bob And curry wrote:
Interesting. My 10k is 6:00; HM is 6:10 but my T is 6:10-6:20! ?
I was told tempo is slower than 10k and faster than half marathon.
T pace varies from day to day depending on how tired you are. That's your first problem.
Second, any XYZ race paces need to be recent.
Many have come before you and completed the 2Q plan. It's not mean to be impossible. The only variable that he leaves for you to tweak is the workout paces. If you are struggling to complete the weeks then your paces are off. It's that simple.
T pace varies from day to day depending on how tired you are. That's your first problem.
Second, any XYZ race paces need to be recent.
Many have come before you and completed the 2Q plan. It's not mean to be impossible. The only variable that he leaves for you to tweak is the workout paces. If you are struggling to complete the weeks then your paces are off. It's that simple.[/quote]
^^^ T pace is always an estimate. Every day it is different. And even if you have a recent race, the formula to calculate your T time is still an estimate. Not everyone that runs 6:10 pace for 10k runs it with the same physiology... A sample of people all running 38 minute 10ks will have different mid-race lactate levels, a different aerobic base/aerobic power, different speed, running economy.. etc. T pace is really based on individual feel (actually it’s based on lactate levels but you’re not going to be constantly measuring lactate through a run, but you can sure feel when you cross threshold.. elevated breathing rate, heavy/ burning legs, etc) They just estimate times for you because novice runners (and sometimes even elites) can’t just go off feel so they give you a pace as a rough estimate to get you in the ball park.
So don’t worry about your pace.. seriously.. just run the workout. If you run at T EFFORT the times will be what they will be. And your body will get the right stimulus. Don’t feel like a failure if you don’t hit the times. (You could’ve used a different race time and different formula to calculate your estimated T time that says your T time is 20 seconds per mile slower) And then you’d think you’re crushing these workouts and would feel great about yourself (even if you’re sore and tired). See how silly we are about trying to stick to these training paces... Just run the workout :)
I think the workout is very difficult (if it actually says to run 10 miles at T pace in one workout).
If your 10K race pace is 6:05, then your Daniels T pace is around 6:17. In Daniels' training, T pace is supposed to be the pace you could run in a race for an hour. Therefore, a 10 mile race for this person would be run in around 62 minutes.
So this 17 mile workout with 10 miles at T pace is like breaking a 10 mile race into smaller segments, with 7 additional miles of warmup, recovery, and cooldown.
I agree with the posters who say that the OP has to assess how he is feeling, and whether it would be pushing too hard to do this on the planned day. My advice is, if in doubt, back off, scale it back, don't overtrain.
His plan is for people with no life or job. Those are the only people who I've known are able to follow it. Seriously. You don't need to run this hard to break 3. Take it at your pace. Run 55mpw with some quality runs while staying health and not get injured.
You ran 17:47 5K on a hot day. You're ready to run 6:50 pace for the marathon on a cool day. You don't even need tempo. Just do enough long runs and you will be ready. If you want to break 2:50, you will need tempo and all the other stuff.
Moo Goo wrote:
You ran 17:47 5K on a hot day. You're ready to run 6:50 pace for the marathon on a cool day. You don't even need tempo. Just do enough long runs and you will be ready. If you want to break 2:50, you will need tempo and all the other stuff.
Im terrified though. 2 years ago I set off with the same goal, but blew up at mile 18.
Back then I was doing 60 mile weeks but no slow running, all moderatly hard all the time. Didn't follow a plan and did 8 20 mile runs.
Since then I went to 80/20.
I want to be super sure I get it so I can get to Boston
my legs are tired :( wrote:
Moo Goo wrote:
You ran 17:47 5K on a hot day. You're ready to run 6:50 pace for the marathon on a cool day. You don't even need tempo. Just do enough long runs and you will be ready. If you want to break 2:50, you will need tempo and all the other stuff.
Im terrified though. 2 years ago I set off with the same goal, but blew up at mile 18.
Back then I was doing 60 mile weeks but no slow running, all moderatly hard all the time. Didn't follow a plan and did 8 20 mile runs.
Since then I went to 80/20.
I want to be super sure I get it so I can get to Boston
Just do the workouts. Scale back if you’re tired.
And then just got to work wrote:
my legs are tired :( wrote:
Im terrified though. 2 years ago I set off with the same goal, but blew up at mile 18.
Back then I was doing 60 mile weeks but no slow running, all moderatly hard all the time. Didn't follow a plan and did 8 20 mile runs.
Since then I went to 80/20.
I want to be super sure I get it so I can get to Boston
Just do the workouts. Scale back if you’re tired.
*too tired....
an hour of T pace is a lot wrote:
I think the workout is very difficult (if it actually says to run 10 miles at T pace in one workout).
If your 10K race pace is 6:05, then your Daniels T pace is around 6:17. In Daniels' training, T pace is supposed to be the pace you could run in a race for an hour. Therefore, a 10 mile race for this person would be run in around 62 minutes.
So this 17 mile workout with 10 miles at T pace is like breaking a 10 mile race into smaller segments, with 7 additional miles of warmup, recovery, and cooldown.
I agree with the posters who say that the OP has to assess how he is feeling, and whether it would be pushing too hard to do this on the planned day. My advice is, if in doubt, back off, scale it back, don't overtrain.
This. That workout would WRECK me. I agree with the earlier poster who said that it looks like an error on the plan, and that 4x2 would be more appropriate.
Slartibartfast wrote:
an hour of T pace is a lot wrote:
I think the workout is very difficult (if it actually says to run 10 miles at T pace in one workout).
If your 10K race pace is 6:05, then your Daniels T pace is around 6:17. In Daniels' training, T pace is supposed to be the pace you could run in a race for an hour. Therefore, a 10 mile race for this person would be run in around 62 minutes.
So this 17 mile workout with 10 miles at T pace is like breaking a 10 mile race into smaller segments, with 7 additional miles of warmup, recovery, and cooldown.
I agree with the posters who say that the OP has to assess how he is feeling, and whether it would be pushing too hard to do this on the planned day. My advice is, if in doubt, back off, scale it back, don't overtrain.
This. That workout would WRECK me. I agree with the earlier poster who said that it looks like an error on the plan, and that 4x2 would be more appropriate.
I agree. I think this is an error. I looked at the book and the higher mileage plan indeed only asks for 4x2T, which seems more manageable. I usually shoot for 6:20 pace because where I live is so hilly. Sometimes I only hit 6:35-6:40 because half of the mile is up a hill.
Thanks for all the advice everyone!:D
I agree with others, if 4x2T or whatever it's supposed to be seems too hard/impossible, you aren't running the correct pace. I didn't start running my workouts under control until I began wearing a HR monitor and gained an understanding of where my HR should be on a Lactate Threshold or MP Tempo Run. Look up Heart Rate Reserve. That tells you where about your HR zones should be as a % of your working heart rate (MaxHR- RestHR = HRR). Lactate Threshold is usually around 85% of HRR, so ((.85 x HRR) + RestHRR) = LT HR. For MP tempos, which Lydiard athletes did twice a week at 10 miles a pop (solid training, not racing), you want to target your HR between 70-80% of HRR. The best way to push your lactate threshold up is from below, not above your LT. I have no problem doing two 1 hour MP tempos twice a week. This is how training for the marathon should be. It shouldn't seem impossible, far from it. It will be challenging, but not impossible.
I remember Steve Jones' training log from the week he ran the Chicago Marathon in the 80's. It was something like this:
M - felt like crap
T - felt like crap
W - felt like crap
T - felt like crap
F - felt like crap
S - easy jog
S - World Record
my legs are tired :( wrote:
My 10k pace is 6:05, my half marathon pace is 6:40. I do T at 6:25.
I know I have a lack of endurance, that is why i'm doing 6 months of marathon training. I'm running more miles, many aerobically, than I ever have in my life.
My experience has always been that Jack Daniels' slower training paces are very difficult for me to handle. I can race a 5k to estimate my fitness and the R pace workouts are a piece of cake, the I-pace workouts and challenging, tempo runs feel like a race and the long runs with marathon-pace segments literally wipe me out for a week. I can't say why this happens but if you are anything like me, you need to dial back so you don't burn yourself out trying to do the recommended T and M-pace workouts.