Breaking: Caster Semenya WILL challenge IAAF's new rules on hyperandrogenism

I would not be surprised if in a future time, athletic performance take into account skeletal mass ratio, testosterone level, other relevant hormone levels, etc. and use these to grade every performance in the same way that wind readings are used to compare performances, or age is used to grade performances in masters events. Then you have something like record for best time:testosterone ratio. Then just run all people together in heats with people of similar seed times, regardless of sex. The top finisher in any meet will become less meaningful. It already is becoming less meaningful as people become more familiar with human physical limits, records become more difficult to get to, and people become more scientifically aware of what factors play a role in achieving certain results.

Simply solution...

Let the other women raise there testosterone levels to the same as Caster,then you will have a even playing field.

I found another article on semenya where she states, "I want to run naturally, the way I was born."

Go ahead. I don't wnat you taking hormone therapy either but i don't think it's fair to be in the female category.

The facts are it's believed she was born with xy chromosones, internal testicles, and no uterus but also no penis.

If you are going to compete in the women's category of professional sports, you have to hit all of the boxes . She hits only one - no penis.

LetsRun.com wrote:

... is entitled to compete ...

I found the source of hus problem"

"... is entitled to..."

Maybe he should stop taking advice from money grubbing lawyers who fill victim-complex prone individuals heads with all kinds of ideas about what they are entitled to.

afraid to post my name but i post regularly wrote:

I found another article on semenya where she states, "I want to run naturally, the way I was born."

Go ahead. I don't wnat you taking hormone therapy either but i don't think it's fair to be in the female category.

The facts are it's believed she was born with xy chromosones, internal testicles, and no uterus but also no penis.

If you are going to compete in the women's category of professional sports, you have to hit all of the boxes . She hits only one - no penis.

I think the most important question here is "what qualifies a person to compete in the female category in the first place?" How do we define "female"? We are suddenly allowing biological males to define themselves as female and compete in the female category under the condition that they reduce their testosterone. What objective factors should give Semenya an exception to that rule?

I'm a male. If I undergo surgery to have my penis inverted and tuck my testicles inside my body so that I look like I have a vagina, does this qualify me as a female? If someone wants to claim that I am a male, rather than a female, how would they prove it? How is this any different than if I were born this way? Just because someone is born without a body part, does that mean they should be treated any differently than someone who loses that body part after birth? If not, then why would Semenya be treated any differently than someone who transformed themselves to her anatomical equivalent after birth? Why should she get a special exception for being born with a certain anatomy over someone who makes themselves that way after birth?

* What if a man is born with some condition that gives him twice the testosterone of any other man on the planet? Would we force him to reduce his testosterone? What if a man is born with a substantial physical advantage over all other men, to the point were he is almost inhuman? Would he be allowed to compete?

Not illegal. As long as its not exogenous testosterone. As in added in.

She has balls. A Testosterone level in women is natural. But it is not from a set of clangers. That makes her as much a man as women. She is a blank - has no naturally occurring female reproductive organs. She has a vajayjay, and balls.

I have seen cases where children with circumstances where the dr thought they may not thrive at birth, (micro penis) have manipulated the birth certificate to reflect a more favorable outcome, and made surgical alterations to match. I would not be surprised if this is a one of those cases.

But whatever, women with balls should not be able to compete against women who don't have them. Balls are not a normal part of women. So she doesn't just have 'High T", she owns the factory.

Have a third division for her/him or anyone who feels they are the opposite sex. They did it for wheelchair athletes who wanted to compete against non-handicapped athletes. (tatiana). The chomosome/testosterone puts those athletes at a different level. Have their own category.

C/M Runner wrote:

Personally, I'm glad she's protesting. While I do not agree that the playing field is fair, I think she should protest and try to fight it, regardless of how the outcome turns out for her. I would lose more respect if she took the ruling and then complained about "that's not fair!" later when she's competing WITHOUT attempting to fight it. I understand her view point.

I think this case opens up a big can of worms. I'm really curious on how it will end up and how the sport will change as a result.

If she wins, they may as well do away with having sex categories in Track and Field.

Nodge wrote:

Simply solution...

Let the other women raise there testosterone levels to the same as Caster,then you will have a even playing field.

I think that the Russian women were already doing that in the London Olympics ... but they were punished.

rules may have to be changed wrote:

If she wins, they may as well do away with having sex categories in Track and Field.

Cool,

Everyone including the audience gets a bright shiny medal and then we all go home.

It's hard not to see this issue as inextricably linked to prescriptive (possibly racist?) Western ideals about femininity. Would Caster Semenya be under the same scrutiny if she "performed" femininity in a way that better aligned with how we think women should look? I just don't think she would be. Certainly one cannot argue that her marks alone are the reason for this ruling.

Sydney Mclaughlin, as a freshman, is head and shoulders above her peers. Are we questioning her right to compete as a woman? No, because she looks the way that we think women should look. The same goes for any other standout female runners who meet Western ideals about what is attractive in women.

Ajee Wilson ran 1:55:61 last July, less than half a second slower than Semenya's best 800m time. So is it that any female 800m runner who runs faster than 1:55:61 has too great of an advantage? I haven't heard accusations against Wilson regarding t-levels or her biological sex, so 1:55:61 must be the cutoff. On the other hand it sure seems like, if Wilson can come within half a second of Semenya, her "unfair advantage" might not be so great, after all.

It's "unfair" for competitors in the same way that Michael Phelps' enormous wingspan is unfair, or Usain Bolt's absolute dominance is unfair. But we aren't trying to mitigate the wingspan of swimmers, or the height of basketball players, or any other naturally-occurring traits of any other athletes who excel in their sport. Would it be frustrating to be a competitor of Semenya and know that I probably would never beat her? Sure. But I'm guessing the competitors of the aforementioned athletes also feel frustrated. They just don't seek to remedy their frustration with public accusations about very personal aspects of their competitors' lives.

Wtf?! Did you just decide to stick your fingers in your ears and sing out "la la la la" when posting that? You can't expect people to take your point seriously if you simply choose to ignore the actual point of debate...

C/M Runner wrote:

Personally, I'm glad she's protesting. While I do not agree that the playing field is fair, I think she should protest and try to fight it, regardless of how the outcome turns out for her.

I think this case opens up a big can of worms. I'm really curious on how it will end up and how the sport will change as a result.

I disagree with the second part. The CAS decision on the Dutee challenge put the IAAF in a tough spot. The IAAF saying no interest can compete in darn near every event except for Dutee's basically begged for this from either Castor, Francine, or Margaret.

CAS will make the same decision they made in the Dutee case, and IAAF has TWO cases of precendent.

Would athletes that are found to exceed the new limits keep their historic performances.

Will CS still have 1:21.77 600m and 1:55.16 as her PRs?

Great post.

Really does get to the matter.

If you have ever seen a professional basketball player, LeBron, Durant, up close, or an offensive tackle in the NFL up close, it just doesn’t seem real. They are so far to the right of the bell curve it’s just as you said.

Semenya had a great interview with Lewis Johnson post race at Pre.

Paraphrasing “I’ll honor god, compete to my fullest, and what he gave me”.

Runnersworld83 wrote:

You’re assuming all she cares about is competing world class. What if her highest priority is being able to compete as her social gender? So she can feel like she’s a part of that gender socially? In that case she’d rather be competing in all comers meets as a 2:07 woman on hormone therapy than as a 1:55 man off it

It was stupid to only apply this ban to certain events rather than across the board. Doing it this way makes it seem discriminatory against Caster even though her situation clearly gives an unfair advantage. Someone with her condition would have a clear advantage in any event.

Excellent post. I agree with you in principle. But it is true that Semenya does not EVER lose. That seems to be a kind of physical advantage that goes beyond Phelps and Bolt, and the height of basketball players. My perspective is that this issue might be something unique to Semenya, so that, contrary to the many "this is the death of women's track and field" posts, we won't see that many intersex athletes like her. But I do feel her advantage goes beyond the natural unfairness of the genetic lottery, and if she is going to compete against women, she should be made to lower her testosterone level.

By the way,--since Lets Run posters always confuse the two, I also think what applies to intersex athletes should also apply to transgender athletes. Hormones should be lowered. But, knowing a few transgender people, I think most of them would actually prefer to have that happen. On these Semenya or transgender posts, you always have a few idiots that say "I'm going to wear a dress and compete as a woman." Well, to that I always think--Go ahead, You'll be destroyed by women like Ajee Wilson who have normal testosterone levels, not to mention intersex athletes like Semenya.

One problem which I've noticed again and again on these Semenya posts is that many Let's Run posters are enraged at her advantage, and seem to think she chose to be born with internal testes. I'm sure she has enjoyed both the material and psychological benefits of her success, but I have no doubt that if you asked her "if you could have had the success you had without your abnormality, would you have preferred that" she would undoubtedly say yes. Of course, her success comes from her abnormality, so that question is not really logical. But, although I do not know anyone who is intersex, I am sure it is not a comfortable situation. I do know some transgender, and a few more gay people, and although many of them "celebrate" their identity, for some of them, I think it is a bit of a compensation, and they do it to prove they are happy that they are gay and transgender. I'm not so sure that all of them are happy, and I think statistics back me up on this. I say this not because I am homophobic or anti-transgender. Not at all. Instead, what I am saying is that whether you are talking about intersex, transgenderism or homosexuality it is NOT a choice, but something that you were born with, and there should be a recognition that their identity is just as legitimate as mine as a heterosexual male.

HOWEVER, even though I would not discriminate against Semenya's identity in society, I do think, in the field of competition, when what you were born with means that you never, ever, lose, then there should be a rule change. Thinking totally hypothetically, what if there were a few 9 feet tall basketball players who were well coordinated, so that every time they got a pass, they scored. All other players would have to do is get them the ball, and it would be an automatic two or three points. I would think there would be a great deal of agitation to change the rules of the game, to try to level the playing field so that the 9 footers wouldn't be the only scorers. That's the way I see Semenya's situation. Admittedly, this hypothetical ignores the complex social issues of gender and identity, but I do think it captures the circumstances on the track, where, if Semenya's in the race, the only question is who will be second.

To argue with the Sydney McLaughlin strawman because of her near equal dominance - Sydney has a brother Taylor. The siblings illustrate human sexual dimorphism. His times in the 200, the 400, the 400 hurdles are faster than the women's world record. He's 4 inches taller and way more muscular. It is clear she's a she and he's a he.

I've seen the Val Adams strawman too because of her great dominance. Her brothers tower over her and she's done the most specifically female biological thing possible.

As far as hormone treatment for transgenders or intersex, that's handicapping and non-sensical. No go, stupid rule. Semenya's situation is more sympathetic than a transgender because of accidental versus intentional. If the female sports that allow transgenders had Major League Baseball type compensation, there would be many transgenders with hormone treatment demonstrating their skeletal advantage. It would be forced on some lower level men in the totalitarian states if the Cold War was still on.

Looking at this as a civil rights issue instead of an competition eligibility issue is where it's going wrong. Semenya is free to compete, just not in the intentionally defined lower class female. Making a rule just for Semenya as has been done is crazy too.