Comrades Marathon (Ultra Pace)

Sand Dunes wrote:

Yuki Kawuachi would do well at the comrades marathon.

Lol no.

He ran a 71k race in 4:41, not completely flat either. With focused training he could do well at Comrades.

What's the difference between ultra running and race walking? They seem pretty similar to me only one is done in the mountains.

[quote]Banana Bread wrote:

I think the up and down profile would suit Bekele. He is great at hills. Look at his cross country, his Great Ireland Run, Great North Run and recent Bern 10 miller. They were all hilly and he destroyed the field. Bekele is more suited to hilly road races then flat road races.[/quote

It’s literally THAN flat road races, not then, dipshit

please explain.. wrote:

What's the difference between ultra running and race walking? They seem pretty similar to me only one is done in the mountains.

Race walking rotates the hips more.

please explain.. wrote:

What's the difference between ultra running and race walking? They seem pretty similar to me only one is done in the mountains.

Congratulations on asking the stupidest question in this thread (and possibly all of LR).

please explain.. wrote:

What's the difference between ultra running and race walking? They seem pretty similar to me only one is done in the mountains.

They are a pretty similar group of people. Just subsets of runners that weren't good enough to be elite on the track or roads so they chose something with much less competition.

Pretty similar wrote:

please explain.. wrote:

What's the difference between ultra running and race walking? They seem pretty similar to me only one is done in the mountains.

They are a pretty similar group of people. Just subsets of runners that weren't good enough to be elite on the track or roads so they chose something with much less competition.

That's like saying 'marathoners are subsets of runners not good enough for track'....or ' milers are not fast enough to be sprinters'.......absolute dumb comment that would describe everyone including yourself

American Ultra Runner wrote:

They run these speeds in the united states too

Where are your 'Comrades equivalent ' races and who is 'running those speeds' there?

Comrades has a net uphill of 1,650m on up run and 700m on down run. That also means that you run those net downhills on the alternate directions.

Also, Comrades is a 'competitive race' , not a time trial

SteelTownRunner wrote:

I would share your enthusiasm at seeing some top level marathon talent take a crack at Comrades, or any longer race for that matter. However, as we know, speed at shorter distances doesn't always translate to longer.

Snip...Snip///

Good post.

Probable reasons why fast marathoners (sub 2:06) would fail are as follows:

a) Without additional training they would not have the distance/strength for course.

b) No sub 2:06 will invest the amount of training required, plus the possibility of more than one attempt to get it right, just for the chance of Comrades bragging rights.

c) The course is brutal both ways, and each way requires specific muscle adaptation and training requirements. 'Up' is 1,650m up/700m down and 'down' is 700m up /1,650m down. There are no flat stretches. None worth mentioning.

d) Most years are hot, especially the up years (more extreme temps in PieterMaritzburg)

e) Fast marathoners are uncomfortable at any course not perfectly flat. They do not even invest time in big marathons that have a 'few hills' in them

When Salazar won it at first attempt in 1994, the race was in a lull post Fordyce era and re-admission. The second place runner was Nick Bester, former triathlete and 1991 winner.

Salazar was struggling so badly in last 8 km, and on drip at finish, that Bester remarked "I should not have run according to my HR zones" (a triathlon legacy). In short, it was an uncompetitive race and a case where lack of prior knowledge helped him.

i have done this race twice. up in 2013 and down last sunday. it blows my mind these guys and ladies "race" this thing. Al Sal posted a good time in his victory but not close to the current crop. all runners need to experience the humanity of this run though. here is a vid from a friend from this years start https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYkP_CA7pwA&feature=youtu.be

Burnsy wrote:

The “super elite” marathoners would not do well at Comrades, and the common assumption that a marathoner could just move up and do well is a fallacy that ignores the physiological differences in the two races.

Agree with Burnsy, and we've discussed the physiology in person too. :-) Being too fast is a disadvantage after 40 miles when you've used up your glycogen and shift to fat/aerobic metabolism through the slow twitch fibers. The best ultrarunners tend to be the 2nd-3rd tier marathoners because they have good speed but are more slow twitch to better handle the metabolic shift. As played out in the women's race on Sunday, a slower marathoner beat the faster marathoners, probably cause she's more wired for ultrarunning.

Personally I think the hardest ultra event is flat road 100K- it's so fast and so repetitive it beats you up in every possible way. The top Comrades guys ran the 100K WC in 2016 and bonked badly. Everyone thought they'd smoke it (surely flat is "easier", right?!). Wrong. The change in muscle usage with the undulations at Comrades is a bit more forgiving on the legs, as long as you're prepared for it. It's probably the best crossover event for trailrunners to try too.

Trailrunning to me feels like 1/2 the distance on road. Trail 50K-100K is like road HM-50K. Even with the terrain/elevation change/going longer, I don't feel as beat up as I do after a road ultra of 50 miles and beyond. A lot of road/track athletes who crossover do well at trail 50K-100K. Beyond 100K, like road ultras, becomes more ultrarunning/metabolic ability, troubleshooting, specificity to the terrain, and a lot of other quirky factors. Trail racing is really great preparation for Comrades too. I felt better able to handle the long 40K climb cause of trail experience and racing/troubleshooting in the heat. It got up to 85 degrees last yr. This year's down run was very cool compared to other yrs, which at least on the women's side made for faster times (despite the added 1K to the course for the stadium finish). As always it's fun to follow, and even more fun to participate!

Thanks for the insight from a winner, however there are few 'opinions' that don't stack up to science/stats. Sorry to take you up on it.

They may be faster at marathon due to better efficiency (i.e. less energy usage per kg.km etc), however that also means taht 'if trained for the distance' they will not use more CHO at the same pace as someone else with a slower marathon.

Ashforth is an anomaly, possibly she has never pushed herself harder at the marathon, maybe her marathon PB is during a training run (lots of these Comrades runners do that), but statistically there is a very tight correlation between marathon best and Comrades best, providing you have set both times (especially PBs) at same effort, intensity, training specificity etc. Same as with 5km to marathon etc.

All things being equal, a faster marathoner should be faster over Comrades.

It would beggar belief that Ashforth could not improve on her marathon PB by at least 10min...or that she consistently ran at '2min slower than flat out marathon pace' for the entire Comrades. It is scientifically and humanly impossible

As said before, it depends on them focusing for it, and few are will to do so, not even for one attempt let alone the several attempts that may be required.

Agreed on the flatness and repetitiveness smashing you. Reminds me of guys that train on undulating courses and have slower times on the flattest of marathons and report it being due to muscle soreness.

As a long time marathoner and coach, my mantra has always been 'enough 'race pace' and 'race terrain' in training.

On the 2016 100km WC I would hardly say they 'bonked' given that they won the team event. The didn't win the outright probably due to 'too fast a pace' rather than the terrain.

For some maybe, yes. Again, as said above it depends on your training. A good road marathoner would disagree.

Besides, you are going slower as well as not over using certain muscle groups.

cheers

Its an ultra. Sometimes the 2:15 marathoner beats the 2:10 guy. When i ran the up year in 2015, Max King and i split about 2:38 for the first marathon (net uphill) along with about 30 other guys in the lead pack. We then bonked quite badly. Two guys in the top 10 were busted for PEDs that year. With $40,000 for the win or so it is definately the most competitive ultra in the world. Keep in mind road ultras are very different than mountain ultras. Max can run pretty darn well at both...and is one of the few that can! From 100km to 100 miles we really start to see that surface and duration of a race matters. A flat 100-miler in 12 hours is a lot different from a 20-hour pull at UTMB. No doubt if some top African guys got into trail/mountain racing they would do very well though. There are a lot of barriers to entry for mountain-trail ultra running. Gotta respect the road speed and paces. Comrades is amazing experience and the ultimate human race!

Also to what I Am Sam wrote.

No, a faster marathoner may be faster at the marathon not because of better efficiency, but because of a higher Vo2max and lower lacate levels.

A guy with a vo2max of 80 and a 10km PR of 28:00 may run 2:12 and beat the guy with a Vo2max of 70 and a 10km PR of 29:00 who runs 2:14. However the latter runner can have better Running Economy (running efficiency).

...maybe like 192.

So Running Economy is variable (esp up and down hills at slower paces like 6:00 pace vs 5:00 pace. Having that ability to have a better “spectrum of high efficiency” depends on lots of factors (training , muscle fiber distribution, genetics, nutrition etc.)

Great insight Camille! To address some of the previous poster’s thoughts:

This is correct for marathon pace, but at the slower Comrades pace it will be quite different. Some pure slow-twitchers may be maxed out on CHO at MP, but everything below that uses greater and greater proportion of fat, while the really top class marathoners may still be maxing CHO even at submaximal speeds (or the proportion may be higher).

This is not a true statement. If you look at the entire field of 20,000 runners, yes (much like if you look at the 10k PBs of all runners in the Boston Marathon), but if you isolate the elite field, within those time ranges I’d say there is a very weak correlation with almost no predictive power. As I mentioned earlier, you have to have good marathon speed to be in the elite field, but you don’t have to be top tier. You correct, though, that many of the best Comrades runners don’t have an “optimized” marathon result (likely the case with Ashworth). Personally, my marathon best was set during a high volume training week leading up to a 100k, and the marathon-specific workouts that I did after that leading up to the ultra suggest it would be a good bit faster if I simply raced a marathon at the end of that training cycle, haha. Even Fordyce’s marathon best, 2:17 (downhill), is “modest”, but he beat many South Africans with much better marathon times at the Comrades.

Again, not true. They’re two distinct physiological tests. A better 800m runner will not necessarily be a better 1500m runner, and a better 1500m runner will not necessarily be a better 5000m runner. Apart from the metabolic differences mentioned above, there’s a psychological difference between the races, again similar to the 1500 and the 5000. You have to have far more patience and restraint in Comrades. The amount of calm concentration you have to have in the marathon (which feels like a whole different sport compared to any distance race on the track) is nothing compared to an ultra, and moreover, you have an added dimension of needing to manage yourself and your body through all the issues that come over the many hours. This psychological control is not some willy-nilly thing to be taken lightly - it’s what separates the many track races and competitors who thrive in each, and moreover, its a physical trait (related to levels of arousal, hormonal reactions to stress, etc) that is distinct for each person. Much like how many 1500 runners, who thrive in a pure animalistic reactionary fight (with just an ounce of exciting patience - as opposed to the all out fire of the 800), cannot stand the 5000 because they go crazy; it feels too long and they can’t meter their adrenaline or competitive control over the sustained, competitively submaximal speed.

Each person is best suited for competition of differing duration - the control required for competing successfully on different points along the duration-intensity curve require different emotional, hormonal, and psychological skill sets.

I bet I could run about 6:30 in this race. I'm good at gone uphill.

@Burnsy, Canaday, Jaguar1

While fuel usage (economy, RER operating point, etc.) is obviously a major factor here, can you comment on running through the muscle damage feeling? I assume the rolling course takes it toll. In a marathon we're all used to running through sludge legs that feel like they got hit by a baseball bat. When it comes to Comrades/road ultras is it a similar experience or in any way different?

Banana Bread wrote:

Your going to need heart surgery. It's not good for you to get mad so easy bro. Smile, don't you know god loves you. Come to think of it I love you to. Take the time to smile at someone and before your through, someone will be smiling back at you.

Of all the stupid things you have said, this is not one of them.