Lord Altrincham wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I agree that Gonzalez is underrated, but you're discrediting your own argument if you are suggesting he was better than Coe. What injury was he suffering from in 86 in Stuttgart? Gonzalez would have beaten Aouita in 87 in the same race he beat Cram and ran the only sub 50 sec final 1500.
Did Aouita run in the WC 5000m instead of the 1500m because it was an easier win?
No...he could have won both!
Aouita is the GOAT!!! ☝️??
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
Lord Altrincham wrote:
Did Aouita run in the WC 5000m instead of the 1500m because it was an easier win?
No...he could have won both!
Aouita is the GOAT!!! ☝️??
Probably. Just had a look at the 1987 WC 1500m final, it wasn't the strongest field.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_1500_metresLord Altrincham wrote:
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
No...he could have won both!
Aouita is the GOAT!!! ☝️??
Probably. Just had a look at the 1987 WC 1500m final, it wasn't the strongest field.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_1500_metres
The fact is that Aouita never won a meaningful 1500m race in his entire career. He had the fastest time going in to Helsinki 83 and he got the bronze because Ovett ran an awful race and Coe wasn't there. He was favourite against Cram in 85 when Cram was still experiencing niggling calf injuries and still lost. He had a chance to finally prove himself as a 1500m racer in Seoul but pulled out after taking a slight knock in the 800m. Or maybe he was spooked by Johnson's drug bust.
Cram was the red hot favourite going in to Rome. Gonzalez had just become the first guy to run a sub 50 final 400 to beat him (first man to beat Cram for 3 years over 1500). And then there was the rising star of Bile. That's why Aouita admitted in an interview that the 1500 was his favourite event but he had a better chance of winning the 5000 in Rome.
People think I'm being too harsh on Aouita, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that he doped extensively, and not only that, but was the first middle-distance great to do so, as well as setting the pattern for other African dopers to do so and consequently to almost ruin our sport. What kind of person does that and is then too cowardly to face his rivals in his favourite event and the blue-ribband event of distance running?
Aouita might be the only runner ever to not only to dope to get an edge on his rivals, but to be able to avoid his rivals.
At least the likes of El G weren't afraid to compete in the 1500m. Imagine if while running 3:26 times El G had stuck to the 5000m in major championships and refused to meet any top 1500 guys on the circuit? We'd be having threads now such as 'who would win - El G vs Morcelli', or 'would El G have beaten Ngany in 2000'? And everybody here would be saying 'of course, look at his times, he was the goat'.
Coevett wrote:
People think I'm being too harsh on Aouita, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that he doped extensively, and not only that, but was the first middle-distance great to do so, as well as setting the pattern for other African dopers to do so and consequently to almost ruin our sport.
This is getting ridiculous. There is no such evidence that he was "the first middle-distance great" doper, and that he set "the pattern for other African dopers ".
same old wrote:
Coevett wrote:
People think I'm being too harsh on Aouita, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that he doped extensively, and not only that, but was the first middle-distance great to do so, as well as setting the pattern for other African dopers to do so and consequently to almost ruin our sport.
This is getting ridiculous. There is no such evidence that he was "the first middle-distance great" doper, and that he set "the pattern for other African dopers ".
+1
same old wrote:
Coevett wrote:
People think I'm being too harsh on Aouita, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that he doped extensively, and not only that, but was the first middle-distance great to do so, as well as setting the pattern for other African dopers to do so and consequently to almost ruin our sport.
This is getting ridiculous. There is no such evidence that he was "the first middle-distance great" doper, and that he set "the pattern for other African dopers ".
You're right, and I apologize. John Walker was chased out of Japan when he told his runners 'EPO is da crack man. U gotta be in it to win It.' And what about Ovett's career progression? Couldn't break 60 secs for 400m, didn't run under 1:50 for 800 until Moscow, then runs 3:30 age 28. Coe same. Nobody knew who he was then ran 1:41 at age 24. Cram two doctors linked to peds. Yet people pick on Aouita???? Moroccans clean goats ALWAYS!
[quote]I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
I'd take my man Aouita! ? For one he has a faster PB than Coe (3:29.46 - 3:29.77).[/quote
Big difference!
Coe was past his best when he won that
2 Olympics gold medals vs Bronze in Wold Championships.
He was concentrating on the 5000m because back then it was for runners to slow for the mike or past his best. The competition was weak compared to the blu riband event the 1500m
80s fan wrote:
Donnie Azoff wrote:
Aouita. Easily.
I would say Aouita. Guys like Gonzalez were beating Coe over 1500m/mile but Gonzalez could not quite match Cram or Aouita over 1500m in big races although he did match Cram in 1987. Aouita also won a bronze in the non-boycotted 1988 Olympics 800m carrying a heavy injury which is crazy when you think that he won a gold in the 1984 Olympics 5000m although that was boycotted. Imagine Bekele moving down to 800m and winning a medal.
As for drug use I think Aouita was doping. I don't know about Coe I used think not but after all the revelations that have leaked about the sport, nothing would surprise me anymore.
Gonzalez are you frigging joking. He beat him once vs how many times. the other way!!!
Coevett wrote:
Lord Altrincham wrote:
Probably. Just had a look at the 1987 WC 1500m final, it wasn't the strongest field.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_1500_metresThe fact is that Aouita never won a meaningful 1500m race in his entire career. He had the fastest time going in to Helsinki 83 and he got the bronze because Ovett ran an awful race and Coe wasn't there. He was favourite against Cram in 85 when Cram was still experiencing niggling calf injuries and still lost. He had a chance to finally prove himself as a 1500m racer in Seoul but pulled out after taking a slight knock in the 800m. Or maybe he was spooked by Johnson's drug bust.
Cram was the red hot favourite going in to Rome. Gonzalez had just become the first guy to run a sub 50 final 400 to beat him (first man to beat Cram for 3 years over 1500). And then there was the rising star of Bile. That's why Aouita admitted in an interview that the 1500 was his favourite event but he had a better chance of winning the 5000 in Rome.
People think I'm being too harsh on Aouita, but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that he doped extensively, and not only that, but was the first middle-distance great to do so, as well as setting the pattern for other African dopers to do so and consequently to almost ruin our sport. What kind of person does that and is then too cowardly to face his rivals in his favourite event and the blue-ribband event of distance running?
Aouita might be the only runner ever to not only to dope to get an edge on his rivals, but to be able to avoid his rivals.
At least the likes of El G weren't afraid to compete in the 1500m. Imagine if while running 3:26 times El G had stuck to the 5000m in major championships and refused to meet any top 1500 guys on the circuit? We'd be having threads now such as 'who would win - El G vs Morcelli', or 'would El G have beaten Ngany in 2000'? And everybody here would be saying 'of course, look at his times, he was the goat'.
Short interview with Aouita discussing his injury at the 1988 OG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUf_eV1CoQI can assure you the 87 World Champs final was not a weak field. Apart from no Aouita or Coe ( out all year with injury) everyone else was there. Bile was at his absolute best and Cram (and indeed Aouita) would have had to have been in his peak 85 form to have matched Bile that day; he ran a 1:46.8 last 800m!
That was not a weak race.
Lord Altrincham wrote:
Short interview with Aouita discussing his injury at the 1988 OG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUf_eV1CoQ
Both Elliot and Cram's injuries going into the 1500m were probably worse than Aouita's yet they finished 2nd and 4th. Both probably did themselves long term damage by running but both were men and realized that this was probably their last chance to win 1500 Gold. Aouita's ego was so big that he probably thought he would get another chance in 92 and by then the Brits would all have finally retired.
Cram was permanently crippled by running in that final and was never an elite athlete again. Elliot got by through finally becoming a full-time athlete and thus managed to run a 1:42 800m at 30 as well as winning Commonwealth 1500 gold.
I wonder just what Aouita was afraid of? Maybe the stricter testing at the major championships and he knew he wouldn't be able to reproduce his regular pumped up 3:29/30/31 1500 times on the circuits in Olympic finals? After finishing with only the bronze in the 800m, perhaps he realized he might be embarrassed in the 1500, so claimed an injury to save face? It would also explain why he performed relatively poorly at Zurich the week after LA. Aouita seemed to peak mid season - easy to do when you you've spent the winter seeing Italian doctors and getting your HGH fix training in the US, and you know you can simply turn up to the 5000m in August cleared of peds and beat 35 year old former milers to win gold.
Coevett wrote:
Aouita seemed to peak mid season - easy to do when you you've spent the winter seeing Italian doctors and getting your HGH fix training in the US, and you know you can simply turn up to the 5000m in August cleared of peds and beat 35 year old former milers to win gold.
0/10
Since they did not race one another over 1500 when both were peaking, there is only one person on LR can answer this question....yes!
Calling VENTO!
We need DVTT(tm) calculations for Coe 84, LA and then Zurich, and for Aouita, same year, you know the legendary race @ Grosseto with the 36sec last 300 and a 3:34 final...
Coevett wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Check the 1984 Olympic 1500m entries and see what they both thought.
+1
Aouita was even saying in 1987, when explaining why he was running the 5000 in Rome instead of the 1500, that he regarded the 1500 as his best event, but ran in the 5000 because he had an better chance of winning.
5000 in 84 was very weak compared to the previous Olympics (reindeer milked up Viren, Yifter in 80). A couple of fairly dangerous Iberians and some old Milers who had moved up themselves to avoid Coe and Cram and who (such as Walker) were a decade older than Aouita and certainly not taking the stuff he was on.
And anyway, you just have to look at Zurich post LA, when both avoided each other. Coe ran a superb race, although he was denied the opportunity of breaking the WR because of poor pacing again. He looked like the thoroughbred he was pulling away from the field with an effortless change of gears in the final 100. He was certainly in sub 3:30 form that night and probably would have ran 3:28 with decent pacing. Aouita ran the Mile and looked nowhere near his 85 best, struggling to hold off John Walker in the home straight. When did Coe ever struggle to hold off John Walker?
It was both parties fault why they didn't run against each other in Zurich. Coe was planning to move up to the 5000m in 1985 (a back injury early in that season put paid to that) so he saw this as his very last chance in his career to grab back Ovett's 1500 WR and be the first man under 3:30. He felt that if Aouita was in the field, then it should be a proper race, but he preferred to go for the WR. Aouita had his chance to face Coe in LA and chickened out. Again, just look at their relative performances on that same night in Zurich and it's clear Coe would have destroyed Aouita both then and the week before in LA.
https://youtu.be/MOVrht9WIvE?t=4m2shttps://youtu.be/ze_fkLP7U4c?t=1m20s
Coe must have been "reindeer milked up".
I agree with a lot of what you write, generally, but I think it’s unfair to compare severity of injury. It was clear that all 3, Elliott, Cram and Aouita, were effected by injury problems in Seoul 88.
The lesson they failed to learn is just how difficult it is to run both 800 and 1500 in the same Olympics, or indeed any championship. Cram was already carrying an injury a couple of weeks before Seoul, then got knocked out in the rounds of the 800m. I don’t have much sympathy with him in that instant, because he got greedy and still went into both events, rather than pull out of the 800, give someone else (i. e. The WR holder in the event) a chance to win a medal, and rest and recover in time for the 1500m. I think had he done this, he would have medalled in the 1500 and possibly still won it.
Elliott’s injury was masked by having pain killer injections. He was in pain without them, but I don’t think he had any long term problems with it. Again, he could have pulled out of the 800 to give himself more chance in the 1500m.
With Aouita’s injury, it looked like it was being made worse with each round of the 800, but by the time of the semi he probably knew that the damage was done and he wouldn’t be able to line up for the 15. He probably thought his only chance was to go ‘all out’ in the 800 final.
I do think there was a bit of avoidance on Aouita’s part in 84, but I don’t think he was scared of Elliott and Cram in 88, the way he had been about a Coe, Ovett, Cram line up in LA. He must have been thanking his lucky stars when Coe was not selected after his debacle in the UK trials!
Elliot was 27 when he ran 1:42 and won the Commonwealth 1500 in 1990, not 30, and it is stretching it a bit to acknowledge him as a 1:42 man when he actually ran 1:42.97. I tend to call that a 1:43, or 1:42 high at best.
I wouldn’t say that Aouita ran poorly in Zurich Mile in 84. It was a typical reflection of his then ability. It was made to look a little less impressive due to Walker running much better than he had run for a few years in chasing the Moroccan, and due to Coe’s superior finish in the 1500 the same evening.
Aouita’s 3:49.5 was perhaps slightly inferior to Coe’s 3:32.3 that night, but Aouita still managed a last 400 of 53.3 and last 300 of 39.3. Compare this with Coe’s 53.0/39.0. However, Coe’s last 100m was 12.5, looking sublime and with a lot left in the tank, whereas Aouita seemed to struggle to run a 12.9.
SarChOOOoo wrote:
Since they did not race one another over 1500 when both were peaking, there is only one person on LR can answer this question....yes!
Calling VENTO!
We need DVTT(tm) calculations for Coe 84, LA and then Zurich, and for Aouita, same year, you know the legendary race @ Grosseto with the 36sec last 300 and a 3:34 final...
No, he is the last person in a position to answer this question from an impartial, detached and realistic point of view. Most of us who post regularly on here know full well how anti Coe he is, and we also know that his musings are based on calculations that reflect the ability of EPO induced athletes in the 90’s with abnormally high endurance, and in an abstract and non-real world. Moreover, anyone who believes Ryun was capable of 1:38, 3:24 and 3:41, is not a suitable candidate of someone capable of offering rational predictions.
Deanouk wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you write, generally, but I think it’s unfair to compare severity of injury. It was clear that all 3, Elliott, Cram and Aouita, were effected by injury problems in Seoul 88.
The lesson they failed to learn is just how difficult it is to run both 800 and 1500 in the same Olympics, or indeed any championship. Cram was already carrying an injury a couple of weeks before Seoul, then got knocked out in the rounds of the 800m. I don’t have much sympathy with him in that instant, because he got greedy and still went into both events, rather than pull out of the 800, give someone else (i. e. The WR holder in the event) a chance to win a medal, and rest and recover in time for the 1500m. I think had he done this, he would have medalled in the 1500 and possibly still won it.
Elliott’s injury was masked by having pain killer injections. He was in pain without them, but I don’t think he had any long term problems with it. Again, he could have pulled out of the 800 to give himself more chance in the 1500m.
With Aouita’s injury, it looked like it was being made worse with each round of the 800, but by the time of the semi he probably knew that the damage was done and he wouldn’t be able to line up for the 15. He probably thought his only chance was to go ‘all out’ in the 800 final.
I do think there was a bit of avoidance on Aouita’s part in 84, but I don’t think he was scared of Elliott and Cram in 88, the way he had been about a Coe, Ovett, Cram line up in LA. He must have been thanking his lucky stars when Coe was not selected after his debacle in the UK trials!
Elliot was 27 when he ran 1:42 and won the Commonwealth 1500 in 1990, not 30, and it is stretching it a bit to acknowledge him as a 1:42 man when he actually ran 1:42.97. I tend to call that a 1:43, or 1:42 high at best.
I wouldn’t say that Aouita ran poorly in Zurich Mile in 84. It was a typical reflection of his then ability. It was made to look a little less impressive due to Walker running much better than he had run for a few years in chasing the Moroccan, and due to Coe’s superior finish in the 1500 the same evening.
Aouita’s 3:49.5 was perhaps slightly inferior to Coe’s 3:32.3 that night, but Aouita still managed a last 400 of 53.3 and last 300 of 39.3. Compare this with Coe’s 53.0/39.0. However, Coe’s last 100m was 12.5, looking sublime and with a lot left in the tank, whereas Aouita seemed to struggle to run a 12.9.
This is why Deano is considered a clown. 1:42.97 is a 1:42 race. Period. Always trying to lessen the performances of any athlete other than Coe. Elliot broke 1:43, deal with it. Rudisha's 800m, even on Mondo, is still better than Coe's record, btw. And Rudisha is the greatest ever. Just ahead of Peter Snell. Let Coe and Kipketer tussle over that third spot.
Coe himself his lucky that Cram never took Jim Spivey's advice to see a Doctor and get some orthotics to help with the calf problems. Cram wasn't at 100% at the '84 Games as everyone knows. Cram remains a gentleman by saying he wouldn't have won "that race" anyway, meaning won the race the way it was run, which is always lost on Dean. If Cram had been in '83 or '85 shape, he'd have beaten Coe, just as he beat him in '85 when he set the WR in the mile. AND Coe was in fine form, running FASTER than he did in '84 over the 800, losing to Cruz (again) 1:42.5 to 1:43, both men losing to Cram who was on a roll and enjoying a season free from calf trouble. Coe ran a great mile but Cram took the wind out of his sails by driving from 350m out.
This isn't to take away from Coe, who is of course one of the all-time greats, but the twisting and contortions to try and make Coe better than everyone no matter what the case it out of control. Coe wasn't EVER capable of running a 3:46 mile or a 3:29 1500 with a sub 55 last 400. However, if one were stupid enough to leave the all out finish until the last 120m, Coe in top form would win. He had the best finish over the last 100. But not over the last 200m/300m/400m.
Coevett is correct in regards to doping almost ruining the sport. Not all Africans are doping, but the flip side is that most are, and they are doing it while laughing at everyone else. They are simply being allowed to cheat, basically avoiding out of season and out of competition testing, unlike their competition. I agree with those who say that if they were tested like Europeans or Japanese or Americans that the Africans would lose half of their world beaters. They have a lot of talented runners but what we're seeing now is artificial in some ways. Like others have pointed out, where are the sub 12:50 guys? The sub 27 guys? That's tailed off because they're "using" just enough to stay ahead of everyone else. Not quite the free-for-all we witnessed with Geb, Komen, KB and others a few years back.
No one in Europe or Japan or other places could get away with this. Only certain third world countries are allowed this type of leeway. What is the politics behind this?
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/sports/article/2001273442/inside-the-doping-underworld
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe v. Said Aouita
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe v. Steve Cram
145 800 PR wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you write, generally, but I think it’s unfair to compare severity of injury. It was clear that all 3, Elliott, Cram and Aouita, were effected by injury problems in Seoul 88.
The lesson they failed to learn is just how difficult it is to run both 800 and 1500 in the same Olympics, or indeed any championship. Cram was already carrying an injury a couple of weeks before Seoul, then got knocked out in the rounds of the 800m. I don’t have much sympathy with him in that instant, because he got greedy and still went into both events, rather than pull out of the 800, give someone else (i. e. The WR holder in the event) a chance to win a medal, and rest and recover in time for the 1500m. I think had he done this, he would have medalled in the 1500 and possibly still won it.
Elliott’s injury was masked by having pain killer injections. He was in pain without them, but I don’t think he had any long term problems with it. Again, he could have pulled out of the 800 to give himself more chance in the 1500m.
With Aouita’s injury, it looked like it was being made worse with each round of the 800, but by the time of the semi he probably knew that the damage was done and he wouldn’t be able to line up for the 15. He probably thought his only chance was to go ‘all out’ in the 800 final.
I do think there was a bit of avoidance on Aouita’s part in 84, but I don’t think he was scared of Elliott and Cram in 88, the way he had been about a Coe, Ovett, Cram line up in LA. He must have been thanking his lucky stars when Coe was not selected after his debacle in the UK trials!
Elliot was 27 when he ran 1:42 and won the Commonwealth 1500 in 1990, not 30, and it is stretching it a bit to acknowledge him as a 1:42 man when he actually ran 1:42.97. I tend to call that a 1:43, or 1:42 high at best.
I wouldn’t say that Aouita ran poorly in Zurich Mile in 84. It was a typical reflection of his then ability. It was made to look a little less impressive due to Walker running much better than he had run for a few years in chasing the Moroccan, and due to Coe’s superior finish in the 1500 the same evening.
Aouita’s 3:49.5 was perhaps slightly inferior to Coe’s 3:32.3 that night, but Aouita still managed a last 400 of 53.3 and last 300 of 39.3. Compare this with Coe’s 53.0/39.0. However, Coe’s last 100m was 12.5, looking sublime and with a lot left in the tank, whereas Aouita seemed to struggle to run a 12.9.
This is why Deano is considered a clown. 1:42.97 is a 1:42 race. Period. Always trying to lessen the performances of any athlete other than Coe. Elliot broke 1:43, deal with it. Rudisha's 800m, even on Mondo, is still better than Coe's record, btw. And Rudisha is the greatest ever. Just ahead of Peter Snell. Let Coe and Kipketer tussle over that third spot.
Coe himself his lucky that Cram never took Jim Spivey's advice to see a Doctor and get some orthotics to help with the calf problems. Cram wasn't at 100% at the '84 Games as everyone knows. Cram remains a gentleman by saying he wouldn't have won "that race" anyway, meaning won the race the way it was run, which is always lost on Dean. If Cram had been in '83 or '85 shape, he'd have beaten Coe, just as he beat him in '85 when he set the WR in the mile. AND Coe was in fine form, running FASTER than he did in '84 over the 800, losing to Cruz (again) 1:42.5 to 1:43, both men losing to Cram who was on a roll and enjoying a season free from calf trouble. Coe ran a great mile but Cram took the wind out of his sails by driving from 350m out.
This isn't to take away from Coe, who is of course one of the all-time greats, but the twisting and contortions to try and make Coe better than everyone no matter what the case it out of control. Coe wasn't EVER capable of running a 3:46 mile or a 3:29 1500 with a sub 55 last 400. However, if one were stupid enough to leave the all out finish until the last 120m, Coe in top form would win. He had the best finish over the last 100. But not over the last 200m/300m/400m.
Coevett is correct in regards to doping almost ruining the sport. Not all Africans are doping, but the flip side is that most are, and they are doing it while laughing at everyone else. They are simply being allowed to cheat, basically avoiding out of season and out of competition testing, unlike their competition. I agree with those who say that if they were tested like Europeans or Japanese or Americans that the Africans would lose half of their world beaters. They have a lot of talented runners but what we're seeing now is artificial in some ways. Like others have pointed out, where are the sub 12:50 guys? The sub 27 guys? That's tailed off because they're "using" just enough to stay ahead of everyone else. Not quite the free-for-all we witnessed with Geb, Komen, KB and others a few years back.
Coe was in good shape in 1985 as you say. Running faster than he did in 1984.
The last race in this vid has Coe vs Cruz over 800m in 1985:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NNKBFEgYoMCoe and Cruz both ran faster than they did at the '84 Games. Don't worry, Deano will have a lorry-load of excuses.
Cram vs Cruz over 800m in 1985 and vs Coe in the mile (Coe in fine form breaks 3:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tS_yfiW5x8More excuses from Deano to come.
Meanwhile, Dr. Gabriele Rosa would take his medical bag to Kenya soon after where he would begin doping runners in large numbers without interference and the sport changed. Europeans lost interest with the flood of fast and mostly doped Africans on the track. Hermens and others quickly followed Rosa's lead. Heh.