How to successfully coach high school cross country at a low socioeconomic status school?

Tybout wrote:

Parents decide where to live largely based on which schools provide the programs and services that their kids need/desire. Coaches decide where to work based on which schools provide the athletes and the support necessary to field a good team. As a result, kids who want to run and coaches who want to coach will just vote with their feet and meet at certain kinds of schools.

Sure, certain types of schools will then be worse at XC than others, but that's not really a bad thing. The kids who want to run XC are still getting the opportunity because they are free to attend schools that have better programs. Truthfully, it's really just inefficient for a good coach to work at a low SES school instead of using their talents at a school with kids who want to run.

I think you misspelled your own name, Mr. Tiebout.

Thanks Coach B for providing a little perspective. Reminds me of post-Katrina listening to people ask why the folks in New Orleans didn't leave when the hurricane was coming. Because many of them had never left the city, ever... And didn't have a ride..

Great stuff in this thread.

I am out of the coaching game now, but coached in a small town with both wealthy and struggling kids. So many low-income kids have to work jobs on nights and weekends. They don't get the recovery time the wealthier kids do. This becomes especially true junior and senior year.

Poorer kids are so much more likely to be running in the crappy generic Nike tennis shoes that cost 50 dollars instead of nice actual trainers. If injured, PT may be out of the question.

Additionally, parents are much less likely to value the importance of the sport. Trying to convince poor parents who smoke and work manual labor jobs that their child should run around in loops on grass is a harder sell.

I wish I had answers. I recruited low-income kids hard because their were so many good kids who needed something constructive after school. I always had a tough time getting them out—and if they came out, obstacles often made it harder for them to succeed.

I coach at a public high school in Washington, DC.

In my opinion, the two keys to success are growing the size of the team and inspiring the kids to want to practice.

I could absolutely talk all day about VO2max, lactate threshold, etc. But at these schools, getting the kids to come to practice every day is a struggle. Your knowledge of advanced training techniques won't do any good if you only have 10 kids and they only run twice per week.

Getting more kids to come to practice everyday is the way to improve. Everything else is secondary until those goals are met.

Summer participation is a must, weekend long runs are a must, but these are all things that seem impossible for such a rural place in America, but honestly just make those kids run home frosh-junior year, sharpen up senior year, state champz

Interesting thread. I taught in a low income inner city school for a few years and taught and coached in a high SES mostly white school for a few years. My observations:

Motivation matters most and, while there are more motivated kids in high SES schools, there are more than enough in a low SES school to have a good team and low SES can be a positive in some ways too. However, it is harder to get the motivated ones interested in track or god forbid xc in low SES areas than in high SES areas. MacFarland is a Disney movie and may or may not track the real story but the thing in that movie that resonated with me was that their football team sucked. I bet their basketball team did too. If either was any good, ths kid who ended up being their stud runner would never have given coach the time of day. He would have been playing one of those or maybe baseball or even soccer long before he ran xc. Also, motivated kids and good HS runners come in all shades and sizes but motivated, disciplined low SES white kids are a rare find. Not sure why and it may have been something about my school but the white kids there were almost universally on their way down, not up.

Coming from a school that does not qualify me to have any experience with this, I'd like to point out what seems to be obvious: To successfully coach high school cross country at a low SES school you need to know how to fundraise extremely well. I'm not talking about the fundraisers where you wash cars (if that's even legal in your area, it's not in ours) or sell cookies or have rummage sales, etc. I'm talking about going big and getting corporations to sponsor you. You want to bring in enough money to have nice uniforms, matching shoes, new tents for the meets you go to, be able to travel somewhere for summer camp, be able to travel to a mid-season meet on a plane, etc.

Money or the association with it is a huge motivating force for those who don't have it or aren't used to being around it. It's not what life is about, but until you have it you don't realize that.

Without money our team would likely be pretty bad. Instead, we are almost always top-20 among all divisions combined in CA and have made several trips to NXN and Foot Locker. It's possible to do it without money, but I really don't know how.

Here is one factor: Generally speaking, the cardiovascular fitness of students at a higher income school is better than the cardiovascular fitness at a lower income school. A more affluent school will have a more established culture (outside of the school, as in the community) for distance running... and perhaps more students with an affinity for participating in intrinsically motivated sports such as cross country.

So, I guess I've got some knowledge of how to be successful in this situation. I never really thought that winning at a low SES school would be the area where I could contribute knowledge more than others. I've written a lot about the obstacles that our kids face, but I'd like to share some of the things we've done over the last few years that has really helped grow our program into one of the best small schools in the sac-joaquin section of CIF.

1. A sense of belonging.

Rich or poor, kids want to feel they fit in somewhere. I've really tried over the last few years to create a culture where everyone feels they have a role. For instance, we had 58 kids (out of a student body of 680) on our team this past season. We break practice as a team every day. Each day, I or my assistants pick a different kid to lead the break. The criterion for leading the break is always the same, "who gave great effort today?"

I make it a point during warm ups to point out kids who are paying attention and doing the drill right...."that's a good skip, Logan!". I find that if I give 3-4 atta boys for every correction, kids are way more receptive.

At the end of every hard meet or hard workout, we have a brief team meeting where kids can give "shout outs" to their teammates. I stole this one from Joe Newton, I'm not too proud to admit. We start with the seniors and captains. My more experienced kids know what they should recognize, effort and dedication. Often times they will point out kids from the JV races who they noticed racing as they were doing their warm up. They'll point out stuff like, "I saw Maria, Kylee, and Jasmine really working well to catch that girl from....." Stuff like that goes a long way and it's great because it reinforces what I try to teach about racing and life.

2. Recognize the things that motivate your kids. I had a kid come into high school and tell me that he was going to break 4 in the mile. I told him that only 3 guys had done it in the past (this was obviously pre-Webb). He told me, "all those other guys aren't me". He, of course, never did. But, he worked farmers markets every day during the summer, waking up at 3:00 am to load trucks and drive to points all over Northern California. They (he and his brothers) would stand around all day in the heat selling fruits and vegetables, then load the trucks back up and drive home. Sometimes they would do an evening market in a second city. I used to get on him for not running more during the summer (he'd get about 200 miles in over the course of the whole summer). I'd tell him stuff like, "all the other fast guys are making time to get more miles in". But I never really understood what motivated him. Despite coming here undocumented in the 80s, his parents had legal status (thanks to President Regan). What really motivated him was trying to help his parents pay off a house they had bought and were fixing up. Between him and his brothers, they were able to do that. His family then sold that house and moved into a nice, new house in a new neighborhood with all the middle class kids.

Running, no matter how good he wanted to be, was always secondary to him. Bringing home $5000 a summer and putting that towards his families financial stability was. He ran 4:31 for me as a sophomore, but his running motivation kind of waned after that.....probably a little too much of me telling him that he wasn't doing enough to be good. He helped us win a section title in CC as a senior and then ran 4:30 on the track that year. I can't help but think that if he was running for me now, he would not have stagnated and not have become disillusioned. Would he ever have broken 4:00? Probably not. Would he have kept better motivation if I didn't constantly tell him he needed to do more and forget about helping his family so much? Probably.

His family paid $40,000 for that house (which in CA says a lot). After working on it, adding rooms, landscaping, etc....they sold it for over $240,000. The kid I'm talking about went on to become a priest and now ministers here in the area. His two younger brothers are now dentists and his younger sister is graduating this year. She's applying to Stanford and her admission there is not unrealistic.

Seems that the answers have avoided the question. Many of you are chiming on the WHY Low SES school struggle. Those in these schools are well aware of the struggles.

What the original question, or at least the question we care about at our school, is what can we do to maximize our potential? What practices/ideas have been done at other schools, like ours, that have been successful? In our state, high SES schools are strongly represented in the top 10. We have been an annoying outlier.

But we are trying to get to that next level, on a consistent basis. We have had flashes of great teams, but not year to year. Or we have 5, but no depth.

This thread greatly interests me. I am also happy to share what we have done or what we specifically struggle with (though the various "flavors" of low SES schools is an incredible range).

Thanks for posting this. . .

Falfurrias, TX's team in the late 60s and 70s is a pretty good model of some of the elements needed to make XC successful in low income areas. Falfurrias, TX is a tiny South Texas town between McAllen and Corpus Christi. XC became popular in the school because kids recognized that they could get college scholarships if they were really good at XC. Otherwise, they would drop out at 16 to go work on a farm or on an oil rig. Also, the kids responded to the motivation of competing against the big city schools and took pride in being able to beat the kids from wealthy suburban schools. Most importantly, the community rallied around the team, holding parades after winning state titles and recognizing individual runners on the marquee of the theater in the middle of town. This would be very difficult to replicate in an urban school. Kids and parents feel like they are awash in a giant urban area and have very little sense of community. The other problem is that distance running is not what it was during the running boom of the 70s when Falfurrias was a success. Back then, people respected distance running because it was an Olympic sport and the professional side saw a lot of media attention. Now, it is pretty much basketball or football and no one pays any attention to distance running.

Great thread.

It really is a very good thread. I hope the mods keep it on track because we all know where it could go off the rails.

1) You are facing a cultural issue. You have to go after the kids on the sidelines and try to make in roads from there. Whether working people or urban poor, these groups do not have the time nor the inclination to "go for a run". The kids will not have grown up seeing Mom or Dad do a 5k on Sat. In these two areas running is still seen as weird and crazy. Overcoming the cultural stigma, where a kid would rather sit and be 4th team on the fball team than be a start on XC team is your biggest issue.

2) Funding. Someone brought this up earlier and I don't think it can be said enough. If you are already swimming against the current culturally, you are going to need ample funding to make your team something special. The best unis, a trip to a special meet here or there, treats after practice, you name it. To do that you need money. You're going to need to do more than just trot out your knowledge of Lydiard/Daniels etc... you need to make XC something the kids not playing fball want to do and look forward to doing.

3) Be your own hype man. Again, you have to get the results of the meet on the morning announcements every day. Write it up yourself, make the top runners at the school sound awesome (even if they kinda aren't) post on the school's website pics of the kids working out and racing, post pictures on a bulletin board at the school, make a big deal about school records, invent new "records" "freshman record" "fastest sophomore" etc.. anything to make what those kids do sound freakin awesome.

4) Actively go after the leaders in the school. Even if those kids suck as runners, having some of the kids that are "popular" "cool" whatever known leaders in the school helps to make in roads with the school at large.

I've had quite a bit of experience not with the program itself, but with the coaches at a school in one of the poorest counties in Missouri. The school is larger, but many of the kids come from fairly impoverish conditions and families that offer little support for the kids. Many of these kids haven't experienced hardly any structure or discipline in their life, and only find it for four years with this team.

That being said, they're also the most successful team in state history, accumulating a ridiculous amount of trophies in the 35+ years with this coach. That's no accident, and is all part of the formula that they've perfected. Understandably, this has come with scrutiny from outsiders, but I believe this scrutiny is misplaced because of misunderstanding.

First and foremost, it's a team with a culture built on pride - each runner on the team knows this and understands this. When you walk in the locker room, you're surrounded by trophies spanning decades. Each runner knows that nearly every team before them has stood on the podium (top-4) at the state meet, and they not only want to be atop this podium - they're expected to be. They know that they're running more miles and running them all harder than anyone else in the state, and that adds to the infectious culture of pride that they exhibit throughout the rest of their life.

Secondly, they're trained with discipline and accountability. From the outside, it appears a bit militaristic, and certainly not on par with the traditional image of a high school cross country program. The head coach and several assistants come from a military background, and much of practice is obviously inspired by this. Leadership is heavily stressed both outside and inside team circles, and the runners get disciplined structure from both coaches and teammates. It's a culture there.

Third, they run - a LOT. It's an outdated system to some, and many disagree with how many miles these kids are prescribed. Often times, varsity members are doing 80+ miles before their senior years. But, it gets these kids fit, and puts them with some of the best inside and outside of the state. It adds to the respect they've achieved from others, and is a central part of the team culture.

Many may say that this much mileage is stupid, that it prevents them from developing in college, etc., but with this, you have to look at how many kids from these programs are actually GOING to college - for many, this much mileage leads to some of the only successful, structured, and winning times of their lives. To outsiders, it may not be worth it, but to the type of kids that are on this team, this is their chance to learn structure, self-discipline, character, and how to win in an area where winning is harder for kids in the larger and wealthier areas of the state.

This is all to say this: to succeed under these socioeconomic conditions, you have to give kids a culture to be part of and to be proud of. If they know that they are working towards something and learning character lessons from the program itself, the team will succeed, even without all of the physiological knowledge and funding of larger and wealthier areas. That is what this program has going for itself - pride and culture that has lasted (and will last) for decades. It's no coincidence that this team also has the largest and probably the proudest alumni base in the state, if not the country, and not by accident. Each person learned how to succeed with a team - a life skill that many lack, and may always lack. High school cross country was perhaps their single chance to do so.

. . . . . . . wrote:

MacFarland is a Disney movie and may or may not track the real story but the thing in that movie that resonated with me was that their football team sucked. I bet their basketball team did too. If either was any good, ths kid who ended up being their stud runner would never have given coach the time of day. He would have been playing one of those or maybe baseball or even soccer long before he ran xc.

MacFarland is a good example of a socioeconomic challenged community but there is a major difference between those kids and kids growing up in a poor urban area.

The MacFarland kids already have a daily routine that requires a tremendous work ethic far more challenging than going on daily training runs.

Take kids from this community and ask them to go for 8-10 miles and they are not gong to think it's a big deal compared to a kid from really anywhere else.

Interesting. As a TFA alumni in the Northeast, it was a feather in my cap to move into the private school world rather easily.

One school that I think would be a great case study would be Eisenhower HS in Yakima, WA. School has been consistently successful going up against upper class schools from the Seattle area. Not only that, the other high school in town, Davis HS is terrible at cross country.

I don't have much insight into what their formula for is as being an outsider (maybe someone on here has an inside look), but going back to what other people have said on here, they have huge numbers turning out, their basketball and football teams are consistently poor and their coach has been a consistent figure for a very long time.

I remember years ago when I was in HS we used to compete against an inner city team Bassick HS in Bridgeport Ct and the coach there was really involved in getting the kids to practice. I'm pretty sure they would go round picking them up before Saturday practices.

Rich kids? PPS has got Lincoln and Grant, which aren't exactly poverty schools. PPS, as a district, doesn't really care about sports, any sport. The District's athletic department is about as far away from the central office as it can get. What message does that send to everybody? School after school, sport after sport, school after school, the coach is either a teacher who just wants the extra duty pay, and they got the coaching assignment because union members get first crack at the coaching jobs, or it's someone not on school staff that has no other contact with the kids than just for a few weeks during the season. The result is high turnover in coaches. There isn't going to be a program, much less a successful program, if there have been three coaches in the last five years. PPS also has the problem that they want to keep schools like Roosevelt and Jefferson "competing" at the 6A level when they're actually 4A size schools by attendance. They don't have the numbers to actually be competitive, so their teams lose and the kids aren't attracted to playing on losing teams.

LowSES wrote:

Wejo,

Well, yeah. When NXN, and at least in my state, Oregon, is dominated by more affluent schools pretty much in all sports, but even in XC which requires fewer committed people to be good, I would call that a concern. Perhaps in this thread we are looking for that 'McFarland' magic and how to get it.

It's entirely possible that poor urban schools have a harder time than rural as the communities are more fractured whereas rural schools, as evidenced by some of the above posts, go all in support all facets of their school's activities.

I for one feel athletics is, well, kinda boring if it means only certain types of kids at certain types of schools can be successful. Actually it feels un-American.

You must hate basketball then.