Dang, Dude wrote:
alsfj;aslks wrote:
What if the athletes that actually run for Brentwood want to enter NXN regionals and run?? Then what?
You win. Who gets to be the real Brentwood?
Officially, they can't use their high school name or have scholastic sanction for NXN anyway, so it wouldn't be a problem. Now I'm wondering if a big successful program like F-M can field a "B" team....
Stuff wrote:
This is a good question. How does that work?
There are no official HS teams at NXN - only clubs, as most HS districts don't permit official HS representation after a certain date. However, Nike wants all "club" members to be from the same HS (so you can't create super-star clubs). For example, Christian Bros Academy (NJ) doesn't officially run under their HS name at NXN (I think they call themselves "Lincroft" or something like that...). Therefore, I actually don't think there would be anything to stop CBA or other HS programs from qualifying two club teams to NXN if they are deep enough (which would be crazy deep). Similarly, Brentwood could try to qualify two teams.
alsfj;aslks wrote:
def happy wrote:
They are more than happy to "live with it" and doing just fine. Indeed, I don't think they will ever run for the HS again. There really is no need when they can enter many track and road races - and even still participate in NXN - as a club team. Thanks!
What if the athletes that actually run for Brentwood want to enter NXN regionals and run?? Then what?
^
Regarding the FM ladies - they recently won NY State XC champs with 24 points. See:
https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/Results/Meet.aspx?Meet=141749#9580
Looks like they are good shape to repeat at NXN for the Nth time. Dyestat has had them ranked #1 in US all season:
https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/Results/Meet.aspx?Meet=141749#9580
how it works :::: wrote:
Stuff wrote:
This is a good question. How does that work?
There are no official HS teams at NXN - only clubs, as most HS districts don't permit official HS representation after a certain date. However, Nike wants all "club" members to be from the same HS (so you can't create super-star clubs). For example, Christian Bros Academy (NJ) doesn't officially run under their HS name at NXN (I think they call themselves "Lincroft" or something like that...). Therefore, I actually don't think there would be anything to stop CBA or other HS programs from qualifying two club teams to NXN if they are deep enough (which would be crazy deep). Similarly, Brentwood could try to qualify two teams.
You are wrong. Nike only allows one team per school into the championship race at each regional. They would have to pick one of the Brentwood teams. The question is which one would they pick?
Looks like my post struck a nerve.
They had a choice. They made it. So, yes, deal with it. Don't go to milesplit to create a sob story.
After reviewing what is published, it appears they had a loose environment in the past where the HS coach basically let them do their own thing and run in the meets. As a HS coach myself, I find this appalling. The new coach came in and had requirements for the team. Things like "train with the team".
The kids didn't want to do that. They wanted the singlet and meet entry but they didn't want to be coached by the school coaches.
I don't know of any program worth a damn that would allow this. I don't know a single decent HS coach that would OK that deal. I know some not-so-good coaches who did it and later regretted it because they lost the team and couldn't get them back.
If this isn't what happened, then someone should come on here and explain it. It very much appears they were offered conditions, declined them, then couldn't fathom that someone actually held them to that level of accountability.
It is what it is. Own it.
The kids that ran for the actual Brentwood HS Team would not be good enough to run in the Championship Race at NXR, and most schools second seven would not make the field either.
I'm wondering why there is an issue with school names not being allowed at post season meets...seems like silly semantics!?!
Texas HS Coach wrote:
Looks like my post struck a nerve.
They had a choice. They made it. So, yes, deal with it. Don't go to milesplit to create a sob story.
After reviewing what is published, it appears they had a loose environment in the past where the HS coach basically let them do their own thing and run in the meets. As a HS coach myself, I find this appalling. The new coach came in and had requirements for the team. Things like "train with the team".
The kids didn't want to do that. They wanted the singlet and meet entry but they didn't want to be coached by the school coaches.
I don't know of any program worth a damn that would allow this. I don't know a single decent HS coach that would OK that deal. I know some not-so-good coaches who did it and later regretted it because they lost the team and couldn't get them back.
If this isn't what happened, then someone should come on here and explain it. It very much appears they were offered conditions, declined them, then couldn't fathom that someone actually held them to that level of accountability.
It is what it is. Own it.
Amen.
The athletes had a choice: work with their school's coach, or not. They chose to not work with the school's coach, because they think their situation is improved by working with someone else. That's fine, that's their call - it's unfortunate for the program that they couldn't work with their HS coach, but it is what it is, and that is a decision they had every right to make.
Likewise, the coach should never allow a group of uncoachable athletes to run for the program - either the athletes are working with their coach to build the program up, or they should go their own ways and do their own thing and let the HS coach build the HS program. As a coach, you cannot allow a small group - no matter how talented - to unilaterally dictate your program's direction (e.g. whether you should allow an private coach to influence the program from outside, up to and including not working out with the team).
To others on this thread:
There is no need to rail against the Brentwood coach - he did what he should have done in that situation, which is provide structure and order and build the program with ALL of the current and future athletes in mind. Any posts trashing what that coach did on the basis of how the boys team didn't match what the previous group matched is just ludicrous: maturity and talent plays a HUGE role in how good a team can be, and it should come as no surprise that when an upperclassmen group that just qualified for NXN the past year quit the team, the team won't have similar immediate success with mostly freshmen and sophomores that haven't broken 17 for 5k before.
If the Brentwood kids going to NXR prefer to work with their private coach, that's great (for them). But they do that realizing that they are forfeiting their right to compete for their high school. That seems to be something they are fine with, so I don't know why folks on this board who aren't a part of the situation would bother complaining about it. Hopefully, the next group of talented kids at Brentwood decide that they can work with their school's coach and not have to have this situation.
As a side note, it looks like Brentwood has a combined boys and girls program, and the girls seemed to run well for the new coach (fifth at state). Seems like a promising start, beyond this drama of the talented group of boys.
Texas HS Coach wrote:
Looks like my post struck a nerve.
They had a choice. They made it. So, yes, deal with it. Don't go to milesplit to create a sob story.
After reviewing what is published, it appears they had a loose environment in the past where the HS coach basically let them do their own thing and run in the meets. As a HS coach myself, I find this appalling. The new coach came in and had requirements for the team. Things like "train with the team".
The kids didn't want to do that. They wanted the singlet and meet entry but they didn't want to be coached by the school coaches.
I don't know of any program worth a damn that would allow this. I don't know a single decent HS coach that would OK that deal. I know some not-so-good coaches who did it and later regretted it because they lost the team and couldn't get them back.
If this isn't what happened, then someone should come on here and explain it. It very much appears they were offered conditions, declined them, then couldn't fathom that someone actually held them to that level of accountability.
It is what it is. Own it.
Read the other thread, which explains the controversy pretty well. I do agree that no “program” worth a damn would have done what was done there. This wasn’t and isn’t a “program.”
Look at the Stats Jack! wrote:
The kids that ran for the actual Brentwood HS Team would not be good enough to run in the Championship Race at NXR, and most schools second seven would not make the field either.
I'm wondering why there is an issue with school names not being allowed at post season meets...seems like silly semantics!?!
It's just a way to skirt the rules of competing in the post-season. Many states don't allow teams to practice, let alone race, outside of their association's season. It's easier to get away with it on an individual level (e.g. Footlocker, or the NXN Individual qualifiers), because whole teams aren't trying to practice and "cheat the system" (getting preferential treatment in the form of additional training and racing experience that other teams in the state aren't getting) by coaching and competing out of season - which is also why the teams that qualify for NXN often aren't coached by their HS coaches after their state's season is done.
Oh? wrote:
Look at the Stats Jack! wrote:
The kids that ran for the actual Brentwood HS Team would not be good enough to run in the Championship Race at NXR, and most schools second seven would not make the field either.
I'm wondering why there is an issue with school names not being allowed at post season meets...seems like silly semantics!?!
It's just a way to skirt the rules of competing in the post-season. Many states don't allow teams to practice, let alone race, outside of their association's season. It's easier to get away with it on an individual level (e.g. Footlocker, or the NXN Individual qualifiers), because whole teams aren't trying to practice and "cheat the system" (getting preferential treatment in the form of additional training and racing experience that other teams in the state aren't getting) by coaching and competing out of season - which is also why the teams that qualify for NXN often aren't coached by their HS coaches after their state's season is done.
Maybe I’m misreading your post, but what NXN teams aren’t coached by their HS coach after their State race? Timo at AF continues to coach his boys, Doug at GO continues to coach his athletes, Aris coaches his ladies. I don’t know of a single NXN team (other than the Brentwood team) that has a non-HS coach take the reins in their NXN buildup.
Not to distract from the point, but I thought it was interesting that Avery apparently needed his NXN costs reimbursed by parents. Didn’t he get those expenses covered by Nike?
Like this, but I don't see a problem with it -
I believe Minnesota and Wisconsin do not allow their regular season high school coaches to continue coaching after their respective State Meets.
How about states that allow 7th and 8th graders to compete for the high school teams? Lots of differences between states, and many rules are simply foolish and hinder the development of distance runners in this country!
NXNer wrote:
Oh? wrote:
It's just a way to skirt the rules of competing in the post-season. Many states don't allow teams to practice, let alone race, outside of their association's season. It's easier to get away with it on an individual level (e.g. Footlocker, or the NXN Individual qualifiers), because whole teams aren't trying to practice and "cheat the system" (getting preferential treatment in the form of additional training and racing experience that other teams in the state aren't getting) by coaching and competing out of season - which is also why the teams that qualify for NXN often aren't coached by their HS coaches after their state's season is done.
Maybe I’m misreading your post, but what NXN teams aren’t coached by their HS coach after their State race? Timo at AF continues to coach his boys, Doug at GO continues to coach his athletes, Aris coaches his ladies. I don’t know of a single NXN team (other than the Brentwood team) that has a non-HS coach take the reins in their NXN buildup.
Not to distract from the point, but I thought it was interesting that Avery apparently needed his NXN costs reimbursed by parents. Didn’t he get those expenses covered by Nike?
NXN is a week after the California state meet. I wouldn't expect it to be a problem for California coaches to continue coaching their teams the following week.
On the other hand, York was coached by Kern in the post-season while Newton was coaching, if I remember correctly, because Newton wasn't allowed to continue coaching his team out of season. I would imagine the same applies to every other Illinois team, unless the rules have since changed.
Every state has their own rules regarding what coaches and teams are allowed to do and now allowed to do. Illinois is not the only state that prohibits out of season coaching and out of season competition. That (Nike's meets being outside the purview of the state association) was one of the reasons why Wisconsin and Michigan couldn't compete at NTN/NXN for several years.
I am not certain, but would imagine that the training between the end of the state association's allowed coaching period and NXN Nationals (which is only going to be 3 weeks to a month or so at most) is usually roughly planned out in advance for the athletes to follow through, probably under the supervision of someone who is trusted by the program but is not affiliated with the program. The coaches are likely in contact, but are not directly coaching the athletes.
It's nothing like the Brentwood situation where private coaches are hired to coach the athletes as they see fit and influence the program beyond the wishes of the HS coaches - it's the reality that state associations generally prefer team practices and team competitions to only occur during the actual season once school starts, which allows athletes to participate in other sports during other seasons without interference from other sports coaches. In order to bridge that gap, either the athletes coach themselves with the understanding of what the coaches wanted from them in their workouts, or a parent or trusted community member supervises any of the few remaining workouts instead.
BHS was perfectly happy with the situation over the past six years or so. In fact, it was pretty funny to see a succession of figurehead coaches win Coach of the Year awards when everyone knew better. It wasn’t until a disgruntled parent got involved that it blew up.
I don’t care one way or the other about them running NXR, but trying to get sympathy and publicity for themselves on MileSplit is another thing.
So some states allow their high school coaches to continue to coach cross country runners after the official high school season?
Some states allow middle school kids to run on high school teams?
Some high schools have over 2000 students in their schools to pick from to make a team?
Some schools have classes during the school day that allow runners to get in a second workout/lift weights/etc?
Some schools pay their coaches to run summer school programs and can have coaching contact with their athletes?
I'm guessing many of the teams that make NXN have two or more of the above afforded to them.
I personally know all about the frustrations of poor coaching and could see where if you are a great runner you would be hesitant to train under someone you feel is not up to speed.
I had the privilege of running under a very successful (let’s just say he accomplished what very few coaches do) XC/distance coach. He knew what he was doing and you could tell he genuinely enjoyed coaching and bettering the team.
He retired and the new coach was the total opposite. Don’t get me wrong he is a good guy. But this guy basically put it all on the runners. Teenagers need structure, guidance and some motivation from a coaching figure. It seemed that he was just coaching XC for the coaching stipend and he would do the bare minimum. He also changed up the training when he came in. I figured I would give him a chance and I ended up regretting that decision.
Pretty much the entires team’s progression came to a halt over the next few years. As the seasons progressed in both XC and track our times would not improve and most would get worse.
Do you think the coach considered his training program sucked? Nope. He blamed us for not “stepping up” in the races. He would give us no race strategy other than “go run” and then be mystified when we wouldn’t perform.
There was one kid on the team who showed some improvement each year and the coach would point to him as justification that his program worked. This kid would come into the seasons in great shape and would just hang on thru the seasons. He ended up improving throughout the seasons on a year to year basis. Come to find out his father was tweaking his training.
In spite of all this I was able to walk on at a D1 and made it XC regionals this year. I now realize just how aweful my last high school coach was.
Inequities ??? wrote:
So some states allow their high school coaches to continue to coach cross country runners after the official high school season?
Some states allow middle school kids to run on high school teams?
Some high schools have over 2000 students in their schools to pick from to make a team?
Some schools have classes during the school day that allow runners to get in a second workout/lift weights/etc?
Some schools pay their coaches to run summer school programs and can have coaching contact with their athletes?
I'm guessing many of the teams that make NXN have two or more of the above afforded to them.
In Texas, we have athletic periods instead of PE, we can coach year round for individual sports (swim, track/xc, tennis, golf), and around 280-300 high schools have 2000 or more students.
You can't change the last tidbit, but if your state association has those other limitations, it is up to the coaching association in your state to lobby for fewer restrictions.
Rock and hard place wrote:
I personally know all about the frustrations of poor coaching and could see where if you are a great runner you would be hesitant to train under someone you feel is not up to speed.
I had the privilege of running under a very successful (let’s just say he accomplished what very few coaches do) XC/distance coach. He knew what he was doing and you could tell he genuinely enjoyed coaching and bettering the team.
He retired and the new coach was the total opposite. Don’t get me wrong he is a good guy. But this guy basically put it all on the runners. Teenagers need structure, guidance and some motivation from a coaching figure. It seemed that he was just coaching XC for the coaching stipend and he would do the bare minimum. He also changed up the training when he came in. I figured I would give him a chance and I ended up regretting that decision.
Pretty much the entires team’s progression came to a halt over the next few years. As the seasons progressed in both XC and track our times would not improve and most would get worse.
Do you think the coach considered his training program sucked? Nope. He blamed us for not “stepping up” in the races. He would give us no race strategy other than “go run” and then be mystified when we wouldn’t perform.
There was one kid on the team who showed some improvement each year and the coach would point to him as justification that his program worked. This kid would come into the seasons in great shape and would just hang on thru the seasons. He ended up improving throughout the seasons on a year to year basis. Come to find out his father was tweaking his training.
In spite of all this I was able to walk on at a D1 and made it XC regionals this year. I now realize just how aweful my last high school coach was.
I wonder if it worse to have had a good coach then a bad coach, or never to have had a good coach at all. I managed a 9:59 basically coaching myself (and overtraining constantly as a result of my inexperience); handled properly I was probably capable of at least 20 seconds better but I will never know.
Glad to hear your college career is working out. I was unable to walk-on at my D-1 school, but in hindsight that was a good thing as our program was a meat grinder that ate up and spat out my faster cohorts, while I at least got in some decent road races and can still run today without the crippling injuries they had. Some pretty major programs are borderline criminal in how they mishandle the athlete.
Texas HS Coach wrote:
Inequities ??? wrote:
So some states allow their high school coaches to continue to coach cross country runners after the official high school season?
Some states allow middle school kids to run on high school teams?
Some high schools have over 2000 students in their schools to pick from to make a team?
Some schools have classes during the school day that allow runners to get in a second workout/lift weights/etc?
Some schools pay their coaches to run summer school programs and can have coaching contact with their athletes?
I'm guessing many of the teams that make NXN have two or more of the above afforded to them.
In Texas, we have athletic periods instead of PE, we can coach year round for individual sports (swim, track/xc, tennis, golf), and around 280-300 high schools have 2000 or more students.
You can't change the last tidbit, but if your state association has those other limitations, it is up to the coaching association in your state to lobby for fewer restrictions.
In Texas, are you allowed to transport your runners to races in the off season.
Does anyone know how many States allow year round coaching?