Are ALL the top runners doping?

My opinion of how many people are doping shifts all the time. At one point I thought that "everyone" doped. I just assumed it, and, mostly because I didn't grow up when people were assumed to be clean, it never bothered me. Now, I think there are a lot of clean athletes and a lot of dirty athletes. I definitely think that the times El G, Geb, etc. are running are possible, so I imagine some of the top guys are clean. The Spaniards are freaking ridiculous in their drug use, so, as people have already said, they aren't really the best example.

Elite Watcher wrote:

He claimed he could tell a doped runner simply by looking at him. He claimed, for example, that Alistair Cragg is a doper--claimed he could tell by the reddened face and the way he ran.

This is one point where I agree.

Yes, many athletes and runners will get a red face from a hard run, but the red face brought on by EPO is different.

Instead of just the cheeks going red, it's the whole face - mainly the forehead. I noticed it in Cathal Lombard and also in a lot of the female Russian runners. Can't find the best pictures to illustrate my point, but here are a few:

Natalya Yevdokimova

Cathal Lombard

Olga Yegorova

Natalya Gorelova

Alistair Cragg has never doped and I very much doubt would ever dope - he has just been better than everyone else from a very young age and is just an exceptional talent.

By the way this is a 100% Legit claim as I know the guy very well.

Your so called elite marathon runner who is so quick to mention someone else's name in a doping allegation and who probably doesnt even know Alistair is very conspicous by not mentioning his own name.

Man this makes me mad how people come on here sprouting heresay without any substance to their allegations...

Are you paying attention?

We told you it was Pablo Sierra and we explained about him.

But you are correct that the person who started this thread was just spouting hearsay without reference.

I posted some Spanish enduro relevant stuff on 6 May to add to the debate on another doping-related message thread. Would add that Fiz and Anton retirements were both pre-planned and linked v much to age (and also injury in Anton's case). I'm reliably informed by a top athlete who spent over a year with their enduro elite that the doping is carried out by a minority - as the illustrious 'JB' suggested here some while back.

The fundamentals of this argument must be flawed. Any one else have this reddening and arent doped? I am one. Im a low 14min 5k runner and low 29 10k...albeit im just out of the junior ranks. I know for one I could not afford to take epo even if i wanted to, which let me make perfectly clear I dont.

hey trackhead, a lesson in logic 101... just because he says "the top 35 in every event are dopers," doesn't mean he's saying the top 35 are dirty, and every single other runner is clean. wasn't some (relatively) low-level italian busted a few years back? additionally, there's this other concept known as "hyperbole" that you also might want to check into.

what about that story of mark carroll getting pissed at a bar telling everyone how he's going to run as fast as he can "clean," and then all bets are off?

the other thing is that just because you think you know someone doesn't mean you actually know that. case in point: ever had a significant other cheat on you, but keep it from you for awhile? but they were so nice and would never do anything like that! now, i hope to hell Alistair Cragg is clean, but this 2:11 guy (for however unverifiable his claims are et al) probably knows a little more about EPO that trackhead, so it makes you wonder. that's all.

moral of the story - public persona and personal integrity (or lack thereof) are two entirely different issues, esp when money and glory are on the line.

Certainly, do you really believe that? You have absolutely no credibility and posting such lies doesn't help your case. It would be like me informing the U.S. President of Iraq's WMDs. I just know they have them so we better damn well disarm them.

Certainly, I sure hope you are never a jurror in any of my murder trials; you could probably sense my guilt from my teardrop tatoos.

I'm not doping, I'm Ritz James, BITCH!

There are athletes from every pre-EPO era that could have been a current top 35 distance runner, which means that there are athletes today that are still capable of competing at this level. When there is a massive shift, however, in the number of athletes under a certain time -- as has happened in cycling and distance running-- then you know that there are a lot of athletes using. When a lot of athletes are using, then you know that the drugs are very accessible. But, that does not mean that all athletes are using. I would speculate, however, that a high percentage of athletes are using, and that the trend continues way down the list, probably past #35.

math dude wrote:

When there is a massive shift, however, in the number of athletes under a certain time

Why that as opposed to more people from East Africa running, more incentive to run, more championship titles to be won, etc?

Bannister broke 4min and it was like a miracle. Steve Scott made it look commonplace.

Jon Brown article helps assure me that Khalid Khannouchi is not on, or was not on, EPO, as he is a heck of a heat runner. Some of his best races have been in over 90-degree heat (Falmouth, San Blas, etc).

My whole face goes red when I run - my chin, my forehead more so than my cheeks. Unless there is something different where people can tell by the exact type of red face EPO brings on, I wouldn't believe it. Incidentally, my sister was a GB international years ago (in another sport, not athletics) and her face goes red when she does aerobics even now. Her whole face - like a beetroot. I don't think you can exactly depend on just this one thing as a sign.

This red face issue is ridiculous isn't it? It just goes to show how we can't believe some peoples so called evidence even if they are elite.

agree whole heartedly with the "red face" theory of drug detection...

anyone consider early hair loss as well...throw in cragg, webb, ritz, Culpepper and while we're at it, Pre....just a thought

The Case Against Spain ... First posted on 10/9/2003

J'Accuse Espagne

A (very) brief history of EPO:

The first mention that I can find relating to erythropoietin is a September 1981 Wall Street Journal piece analyzing the pending fiscal performance of McDonnell Douglas:

"In its explorations, McDonnell Douglas has spotted six possible new drugs that might be suited for space manufacture, they include...a hormone called Erythropoietin, which stimulates the production of red blood cells and might be used in treating anemias."

In 1984, another Wall Street Journal article noted that the biotech firm Amgen of Southern California had formed a joint venture with Kirin Brewery Co. of Japan (that's another story) ...

"To manufacture, test and market a synthetic human hormone for boosting red blood cells to treat anemia.

The venture's principal focus will be the testing and marketing of the synthetic hormone erythropoietin, called EPO. In December, Amgen said it had produced the hormone by splicing the human gene into bacteria, yeast and mammalian cells."

A press release in 1984 from Johnson & Johnson announced another joint venture, this time with Amgen, to start clinical trials on erythropoietin, now being referred to more commonly as EPO:

"Amgen-developed EPO is expected to stimulate red blood cell production. It is believed this product will be particularly beneficial to kidney dialysis patients, eliminating the need for frequent transfusions to replenish red blood cells. Other anemias are likely to be treatable with EPO as well."

Amgen was eventually beaten to the punch for the U.S. patent rights to EPO - despite being further ahead in clinical trials - by Cambridge Mass rival Genetics Institute in the early 1990s.

FDA approval for EPO first came in June of 1989 - a ruling which spawned a series of protracted lawsuits between Amgen, J&J and Genetics Institute that would remain in the courts for the next five years, ultimately delaying mass production.

(Intriguingly, Genetics Institute set up a 50/50 venture with a second Japanese firm, Chugai Pharmaceuticals, to develop and market EPO in the Far East. Japan's success in the longer distances shares a striking co-relation to the mass production of EPO in the region.)

(UPDATE: On April 21, 2005, Shire Pharmaceuticals Plc, the U.K.-based drugs giant, estimated the European market for EPO to be around $2.3 billion. In other words, there's a lot of it out there.)

EPO In Sports

The first reference I could find for EPO relating to blood doping in sport was a 1988 piece in the Dallas Morning News:

"Researchers in Europe and the United States published separate studies of cross-country skiers last year that showed blood-boosting improved performances by about 3 percent -- a significant amount at the elite, international level.

"I think there has been a lot of sophisticated stuff going on over the last several years,' Dr. Herman Falsetti, the cardiologist who supervised the blood-letting of the cyclists, said last week. "You can assume the technology has been refined.'

The new wave of blood boosting, according to doctors and exercise physiologists, seems to lie with the use of erythropoietin, a hormone that regulates the body's production of red blood cells.

A European firm has recently started to synthesize human erythropoitin, and the leap in logic is a short one: Inject the hormone into the body, thereby telling it to manufacture more red blood cells. No more having to transport frozen blood all over the world.

Blood boosting, circa 1988, apparently extends well beyond the world of the elite athlete. "There is no profile of the average athlete who does it,' said Falsetti.?It's there at all different levels of athletic accomplishment. All levels. I've had people who are doing their first marathon come by and want to blood boost.'"

EPO In Spain

Oddly enough, European marketing rights for EPO - first branded as EPREX - were first granted to France and Spain through J&J's Swiss subsidiary Cilag AG (now Janssen Cilag Ltd.) in 1988 and eventually sold to Germany's Boehringer Mannheim GmbH in 1991.

The first medical conference discussing EPOs clinical trial results was held in 1989. The keynote speaker?

Spain's Dr. Francisco Valderrabano

From that moment on, Spain remained at the forefront of EPO's clinical testing phase, as well as discussions relating to its patent.

In July of 1991, Spain - and only Spain - argued against extending EPO and EPREX patents to Cilag and Mannheim.

EPO in Spanish sport

To offer a bit of context, Spain's middle and long distance tradition in athletics was, to say the least, poor, as EPO began to experience mass production in Western Europe in the early 1990s.

Only two Spanish track and field athletes (Racer Walker Jorge Ilupart in 1980 and 1500 metre man Jose Manuel Abascal in 1984) had collected medals in 88 years of Olympic competition.

In 1993, Spain's national record in the Marathon - 2:10:27 - was held by Rodrigo Gavela Rodriquez.

Between 1993 and 2003, 12 more men would run under 2:10 a total of 39 times- including the convicted drug cheat Julio Rey.

During this remarkable purple-patch, new national record holder Fabian Roncero shaved nearly 7 minutes off his marathon PR within a single year - at the age of 28.

Let's digest that statistic for a moment.

Pre-EPO mass production: no sub 2:10s

Post-EPO mass production: 39 sub 2:10s

This renaissance was no less dramatic in the shorter distances.

Over 1500 metres, for example, Spain had 2 runners under 3:34 prior to 1993.

After 1993 and the mass-production of EPREX in Europe and the Spanish governments lobbying for the EU to relinquish its control of drug patents, 9 new runners broke 3:34.

Not bad for a nation of 40 million people.

Numerically, it's a similar story in the 5000 and 10,000 metres:

Pre-EPO mass production: 2 runners under 13:15 (Abascal and Gonzalez)

Post-EPO mass production: 7 runners under 13:15

Pre-EPO mass production: 4 runners under 28:00 minutes (including the great Mariano Haro who ran 27:48 in 1972)

Post-EPO mass production: 12 runners under 28:00 minutes

Now *that's* coaching!

Or maybe it's something else.

Here's what England's 2:09:44 (UPDATE: Now 2:09.:30)Marathoner Jon Brown had to say about the remarkable re-branding of Spanish athletics to the UK's Channel 4 News in 2000:

"According to Jon Brown, who placed fourth for Britain in the Sydney Olympics marathon, these statistics and the ready availability of EPO are more than mere coincidence. 'Five years ago, it was virtually non-existent in distance running, but now it's got to the stage where drug-taking is almost accepted as part of the game,' says Brown, who has run 10,000 in 27:18.14, and two years ago managed to break 2:10 for the marathon for the first time. 'You see people with modest ability producing fantastic times. It's very frustrating. I've seen a lot of weird things in the last few years. Some of the main players are operating on the stuff. It's most obvious in the marathon.'

One of the oddest rumours circulating the European distance scene over the past couple of years has involved the race contract of one marathon runner, who always insists on an opt-out clause if the race-day temperature is above 30 degrees. "It's because he's on EPO," according to a race director who asked not to be named. "He's scared that if he dehydrates too much during the course of the race, his blood will turn to sludge."

'It's becoming accepted that if you want to be competitive you take EPO,' Brown said. 'The problem they have had in cycling was that it became part and parcel of the sport, and that's what I see happening in distance running. Money is the motivation'

One of the most serious allegations was made by ****Pablo Sierra****, a marathon teammate of Garcia with a 2:11 personal best, when he told told a Spanish national newspaper that other Spanish marathon runners used EPO.

"In Spain, EPO is easily available," Sierra said. "It is not a question of who is using EPO - it is more a case of who is not using EPO."

For his rash candour, Sierra was rewarded by the Spanish national athletics federation with a six-month ban, and a block on his state-funded elite grant."

(Note: Sierra, former winner of the Twin Cities Marathon, was banned for 6 months by the Spanish Federation for "brining the sport into disrepute". One coach called the accusations "the rantings of a madman". At the same time, the Federation, RFEA, refused to investigate Sierra's claims.)

(UPDATE: Spanish women's 5,000 metre champion Amaia Piedra tested positive for EPO in February 2005. Her suspension is pending appeal.)

Coincidently, Spain's remarkable transition into a nation of endurance champions isn't limited to the track, as can best be illustrated through the curious defection of Johan Muehlegg.

Long a mainstay of the German Nordic ski team, Muehlegg emigrated to Spain in 1998 (as you would expect, given Spain's rich tradition in the sport).

Amazingly, the Iberian mountain air must have worked wonders, because within a few months of relocating to the wintry capital of Madrid, Muehlegg was standing on the winner's podium in a Nordic world cup event for the very first time.

By 2000, he was overall world cup champion - after 10 years in the sport without a single title.

At Salt Lake City in 2002, he crowned his triumphant career as a Spaniard with an unprecedented triple gold medal performance.

Oh yeah, he also tested positive for EPO before the games were over, was stripped of his medals and returned home to Germany in disgrace. He later claimed to have been contacted by "people from the other side" - ie, aliens - who commanded him to take the drugs. (I'm not kidding; he sold his story to The Sun).

I wonder if he still has a flat Madrid?

And that's not even mentioning Spain's other Nordic ski champion who snacked on aranesp - the classically Spanish named Olga Danilova - who was also busted in Salt Lake City and earned the distinction of being the first drug cheat in the Winter Olympics since 1988. Ole!

It's Not About the Bike (it's about the drugs)

No discussion of EPO and sport would be complete without mentioning cycling.

Since Tour de France officials decided to avoid the late-90s EPO fiasco and the subsequent PR fiasco, only two athletes have tested positive for the blood-sludge while competing on the Tour.

Again, in an amazing coincidence, both of those riders were Spanish: Javier Pascual Llorente and Txema Del Olmo.

(UPDATE: Tyler Hamilton was busted for EPO while living in his Girona, Spain condo. Girona, for those that aren't familiar with cheap European air travel, is a one-stop, nowhere town about an hour from Barcelona with no redeeming qualities apart from easy access to the French border. In other words, it's the perfect place to hide. Or, at least, it should have been.)

Conclusion

Die hard fans of the Iberian-based athletes will - perhaps correctly - point to the circumstantial nature of the case I've presented above. That's fine. Absent hard test results, and frequently not even then, it's impossible to truly establish the truth of an athlete's guilt or lack of thereof.

However, the statement I made earlier reflected what I felt - and still feel - is a genuine suspicion relating to the unprecedented improvement in Spanish endurance sports in the mid to late 1990s.

QED

J'Accuse Espagne.

Martin

martin-xdresser wrote,"Tyler Hamilton was busted for EPO while living in his Girona"

bullshit.

Trackhead you are making sound as if you think bery few people are doping. No I disagree with the first post saying that the top 35 are uses drugs. But I would be willing to bet that it is far more than a few of the top runners in the world who are doping. I knwo you have high look upon the east Africans. I do the same way because alot of them do things the right way and work for everything they get unlike lazy americans. But I do have to admit that there are most likely some doping going on in some of them. I honestly think it is like that all over th world especially China. I dont think the drug problem will ever go away, there will always be question marks for some because new ways to drug are always coming out. I choose to believe in people first as do you. But skeepticism must always be used in order to find ways to catch the cheats.

Elite Watcher wrote:

Are ALL the top runners doping?

Yes. Topic over.