Changing Cadence and Stride Length -questions

Cadence Aficionado wrote:

Pappy wrote:

Velocity helps with a mid foot strike more than anything. Why is a midfoot strike so special? There are a lot of heel strikers that run just as efficiently as mid foot strikers.

You are certainly correct that there are heel strikers that have higher running efficiencies that mid foot strikers. However, the key point is that these heel strikers would have even higher efficiencies if they adopted a midfoot strike.

The advantages of a midfoot strike are pretty well documented. The fast heel strikers, while already very efficient, could potentially stand to benefit from adopting a midfoot strike.

To OP:

You mentioned in your original post that your stride length remained constant after changing your cadence. That suggests to me that your “form change” is only half complete: your cadence has increased but your stride length hasn’t decreased with it. If anything, it’s totally expected that you have increased knee calf pain - you're overstriding just as much as before, but now at a faster rate.

I think your issue is that it is uncomfortable to increase cadence without a corresponding increase in speed (thus your stride length stays the same and the problem isn’t solved). When I was working on cadence, I tended to speed up as well - unless I ran on the treadmill (sorry). I would experiment running with a metronome (plenty of free apps) on a treadmill. Set it to a value slightly higher than what your body is used to. The constant speed of the treadmill will force you to shorten your stride. As you adapt to the higher cadence you can experiment with higher metronome settings. Ultimately you will begin to feel natural at the higher, more efficient cadence and your old cadence will feel like you are bouncing through the air.

My $.02.

Cadence Aficionado wrote:

fisky wrote:

I've posted this many times on LetsRun, but here goes again.

To run more forefoot, you need to do a couple of things.

3. If you want to increase cadence, pick a cadence about 10% faster than your current cadence. Run some of your intervals focusing on cadence. On recovery runs, run the faster cadence for 20-30 seconds. Do not speed up. Just get accustomed to turning your legs over faster. At first, you'll get tired faster, but keep it up and you'll adapt. Again, don't try to speed up. Just turn your legs over faster. This will take some discipline, but once you can hold the faster cadence at recovery paces, you'll find it easier to hold it at interval pace, and then eventually at race pace.

As an addendum to point 3:

A coach or physiologist (I think it was Jack Daniels) measured one or several runners while on a treadmill. I don’t remember the details of the study, but the gist of it was, when cadence increased, every marker of extortion decreased - except for perceived exertion. The conclusion here is that while it may feel inefficient and counterproductive to increase cadence, it really isn’t.

This study/experiment also suggests that your body does NOT naturally adapt to its most efficient running form. Many people on these cadence threads chime in to say that changing form will definitively reduce running efficiency. Daniels proved that many runners feel comfortable at an inefficient cadence, and that making modifications can improve efficiency.

Still Getting Faster wrote:

I am similar to you: I am 6'4" and 185lbs. I was a heel striker (this is how I was taught in high school 25 years ago) and was having all kinds of pain in my hips, knees, and back as I ramped up miles. Five years ago I made a conscious effort to switch to a midfoot strike via increasing cadence and shortening stride. The results were amazing. Not only did I not get injured nearly as often but I have been getting faster and faster as I have been able to stay running without extended downtime for injury.

Don't go back to the heel strike. The first few weeks of changing your form will be uncomfortable, but stretch those calves out after each run and you'll be fine.

I'll second the idea of getting some 4mm or 6mm drop shoes. I would also recommend getting some racing flats. The lower drop shoes will give you immediate feedback on whether or not your are heel striking as hitting heel-first will HURT in shoes with less drop and cushioning. Only use the flats for short distances and as a training tool at first to get your form right. Anything more than a few miles and you can get plantar fasciitis if you are not used to them.

Good luck!

UsedToBeFast wrote:

Cadence Aficionado wrote:

You are certainly correct that there are heel strikers that have higher running efficiencies that mid foot strikers. However, the key point is that these heel strikers would have even higher efficiencies if they adopted a midfoot strike.

The advantages of a midfoot strike are pretty well documented. The fast heel strikers, while already very efficient, could potentially stand to benefit from adopting a midfoot strike.

To OP:

You mentioned in your original post that your stride length remained constant after changing your cadence. That suggests to me that your “form change” is only half complete: your cadence has increased but your stride length hasn’t decreased with it. If anything, it’s totally expected that you have increased knee calf pain - you're overstriding just as much as before, but now at a faster rate.

I think your issue is that it is uncomfortable to increase cadence without a corresponding increase in speed (thus your stride length stays the same and the problem isn’t solved). When I was working on cadence, I tended to speed up as well - unless I ran on the treadmill (sorry). I would experiment running with a metronome (plenty of free apps) on a treadmill. Set it to a value slightly higher than what your body is used to. The constant speed of the treadmill will force you to shorten your stride. As you adapt to the higher cadence you can experiment with higher metronome settings. Ultimately you will begin to feel natural at the higher, more efficient cadence and your old cadence will feel like you are bouncing through the air.

My $.02.

Thank you for the input, will definitely try this as treadmill season is coming up. What you are saying makes a lot of sense about my stride length and this new form I should forcing me to run faster, even on easy days which isn't great.

Don't fast runners have a bigger stride than I do even when they are going slow for them? How are they able to have a huge stride and a fast cadence while remaining let's say around 7 min a mile?

For all reading this thread, after 30+ years of running this is the first time I've really tried to tweak my horrible form and it's such a weird feeling.

Goal is to break 1:20 at the Eugene Half in October, right now I'm out of shape coming off an injury, let's say about 1:32 HM shape. I ran 1:25 in Richmond (at 195 lbs with minimal workouts) last year while not being near peak shape either.

Thanks to anyone who has provided input into this thread so far.

UsedToBeFast wrote:

fisky wrote:

I've posted this many times on LetsRun, but here goes again.

To run more forefoot, you need to do a couple of things.

1. Run barefoot on a grass football or soccer field. Stand still. Lean forward without bending at the waist until you start falling forward. You will forefoot strike because it is almost impossible to heel strike while running barefoot. After 3-4 reps of 40 meters (or whenever you feel like you can duplicate the form, put on your shoes and run the same way on the track landing on your forefoot. At first, you might only be able to hold this new form for 20-30 seconds because it feels new. When that happens, run normally for a minute or two and then repeat the forefoot form, running 20-30 seconds. Gradually increase the time running forefoot to a minute, then two minutes.

2. Consider switching to a 4mm drop shoe. It's hard to change running form while wearing 10mm heel to toe drop shoes. You'll need to find a shoe that can handle your weight. I'd suggest a Hoka... maybe the Bondi. The Hoka curved outsole will allow you to strike more towards the forefoot.

3. If you want to increase cadence, pick a cadence about 10% faster than your current cadence. Run some of your intervals focusing on cadence. On recovery runs, run the faster cadence for 20-30 seconds. Do not speed up. Just get accustomed to turning your legs over faster. At first, you'll get tired faster, but keep it up and you'll adapt. Again, don't try to speed up. Just turn your legs over faster. This will take some discipline, but once you can hold the faster cadence at recovery paces, you'll find it easier to hold it at interval pace, and then eventually at race pace.

Thank you, I'm going to try this. Hopefully it's warm enough next weekend to give this a shot.

Question though, do you think the heel strike is my body's subliminal way of protecting my knees. I'm admittedly a bigger distance runner and I've never had knee problems. After 1 week of midstrike my knees are hurting.

I'll try to go back to heel striking for now and ease into it the way you recommended above. It's a shame I was going faster all week with less effort than normal.

fisky wrote:

UsedToBeFast wrote:

Thank you, I'm going to try this. Hopefully it's warm enough next weekend to give this a shot.

Question though, do you think the heel strike is my body's subliminal way of protecting my knees. I'm admittedly a bigger distance runner and I've never had knee problems. After 1 week of midstrike my knees are hurting.

I'll try to go back to heel striking for now and ease into it the way you recommended above. It's a shame I was going faster all week with less effort than normal.

There's a lot to comment on in this thread.

1. In my opinion, the efficiency of forefoot running doesn't start until running at fast paces. Based on my experience, that's about a 7min/mile pace for a short person like me and maybe 6min/mile pace for a tall person like you. If you aren't experiencing injuries, there is no need to change your form unless you want to run faster than 6min/mile.

2. I don't think your body is protecting your knee per se. Running shoes have been designed to encourage heel strike and as a result, also encourage over striding. Usually, this creates knee problems. After converting to forefoot strike, I can no longer wear a 10-11mm drop shoe. If you want to change to forefoot, I urge you to change to a 4mm drop shoe. I'm sure there are other shoes that would work for you, but I only have personal experience with the Hokas and Newtons. I've been unimpressed with Newton's big guy shoes, but the Distance is great for me at 135 pounds. If you look around, you can sometimes get the Hokas, especially last year's model, at 40% discount. Use code FB15D for a 15% discount at Running Warehouse.

3. If you are running faster while increasing your cadence, you are doing it wrong! At this point in your transition, think of increasing cadence as a drill. Do NOT run faster. I used a Seiko DM50 metronome when running intervals to see where the sweet spot was for me. At first, it will be harder (less efficient) to run at the same interval pace with a faster cadence. It will take time for your body to adapt. By time, I mean months, not days. It took me 6 months to run faster with a forefoot strike, but I had no where to seek advice on how to do it at the time 15 years ago. I went from a normal heel strike cadence of about 165 to 184 after several months. I now run long intervals around 188-192.

4. It will help your transition if you think about getting your elbows behind you on intervals. If you watch the Kenyans, you'll see than while they may do different things with their hands and arms in front of their body, they universally get their elbows so far back that their upper arm is almost parallel to the ground. Keeping your elbows back on the backswing and your hands reasonably close to your body on your front swing will help you lean forward, which in turn will make it easier to forefoot strike.

One unmentioned advantage of forefoot strike it that it will significantly improve your finishing kick. Of course, that's not too critical in the half marathon, but on the track it gives me an advantage.

Be patient. It took me several months to transition.

UsedToBeFast wrote:

fisky wrote:

There's a lot to comment on in this thread.

1. In my opinion, the efficiency of forefoot running doesn't start until running at fast paces. Based on my experience, that's about a 7min/mile pace for a short person like me and maybe 6min/mile pace for a tall person like you. If you aren't experiencing injuries, there is no need to change your form unless you want to run faster than 6min/mile.

2. I don't think your body is protecting your knee per se. Running shoes have been designed to encourage heel strike and as a result, also encourage over striding. Usually, this creates knee problems. After converting to forefoot strike, I can no longer wear a 10-11mm drop shoe. If you want to change to forefoot, I urge you to change to a 4mm drop shoe. I'm sure there are other shoes that would work for you, but I only have personal experience with the Hokas and Newtons. I've been unimpressed with Newton's big guy shoes, but the Distance is great for me at 135 pounds. If you look around, you can sometimes get the Hokas, especially last year's model, at 40% discount. Use code FB15D for a 15% discount at Running Warehouse.

3. If you are running faster while increasing your cadence, you are doing it wrong! At this point in your transition, think of increasing cadence as a drill. Do NOT run faster. I used a Seiko DM50 metronome when running intervals to see where the sweet spot was for me. At first, it will be harder (less efficient) to run at the same interval pace with a faster cadence. It will take time for your body to adapt. By time, I mean months, not days. It took me 6 months to run faster with a forefoot strike, but I had no where to seek advice on how to do it at the time 15 years ago. I went from a normal heel strike cadence of about 165 to 184 after several months. I now run long intervals around 188-192.

4. It will help your transition if you think about getting your elbows behind you on intervals. If you watch the Kenyans, you'll see than while they may do different things with their hands and arms in front of their body, they universally get their elbows so far back that their upper arm is almost parallel to the ground. Keeping your elbows back on the backswing and your hands reasonably close to your body on your front swing will help you lean forward, which in turn will make it easier to forefoot strike.

One unmentioned advantage of forefoot strike it that it will significantly improve your finishing kick. Of course, that's not too critical in the half marathon, but on the track it gives me an advantage.

Be patient. It took me several months to transition.

Thanks for these suggestions, I'll focus on the elbow motion tonight. Maybe I'm trying to change too much too quickly so i think I'll gradually incorporate many of the recommendations from this thread over the next few weeks. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, its constructive posts like I've seen here that restore my faith in the LR message boards. I'll post an update in the future to let you all know how things are going with the form, really hoping for a breakthrough and that 37 years old isn't too late for it!!

UsedToBeFast wrote:

UsedToBeFast wrote:

Thanks for these suggestions, I'll focus on the elbow motion tonight. Maybe I'm trying to change too much too quickly so i think I'll gradually incorporate many of the recommendations from this thread over the next few weeks. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, its constructive posts like I've seen here that restore my faith in the LR message boards. I'll post an update in the future to let you all know how things are going with the form, really hoping for a breakthrough and that 37 years old isn't too late for it!!

Fisky, so tonight I focused on the arm motion you described and I think I nailed it despite some fatigue setting in from not being used to that motion. I normally pump my arms forward. I kept it around 8/min per mile as everyone is saying to go slow while trying to improve cadence. My cadence tonight was down to 162 and stride length was 1.23. I thought for sure it would be higher. I know this is a long process, but I'm just a bit surprised. If you'd like feel free to email me at

mitchfeldman44@gmail.com

as I'd love to learn more from you since you seem to know a lot about form. Completely understand if you just want to end it here.

fisky wrote:

UsedToBeFast wrote:

Fisky, so tonight I focused on the arm motion you described and I think I nailed it despite some fatigue setting in from not being used to that motion. I normally pump my arms forward. I kept it around 8/min per mile as everyone is saying to go slow while trying to improve cadence. My cadence tonight was down to 162 and stride length was 1.23. I thought for sure it would be higher. I know this is a long process, but I'm just a bit surprised. If you'd like feel free to email me at

mitchfeldman44@gmail.com

as I'd love to learn more from you since you seem to know a lot about form. Completely understand if you just want to end it here.

This is a good thread. Let's keep it here because you are getting some great comments from guys like Cadence Aficianado and others.

You're trying to put all this advice together in one run... cadence, elbows back, forward lean, etc. That's too much to remember.

Don't do it that way. You can't go from doing none of these things to doing them ALL in one run AND keep doing them nonstop for several minutes.

Instead, do each step individually for 20-30 seconds. Work on getting that one step right and then do another, just like you would a running drill.

1. Elbows back. Run for 20-30 seconds getting your elbows back and your upper arm as close to horizontal on the back swing as possible. Forget about cadence. Forget about speed. IT. IS. A. DRILL... Like A skips, high knees, B skips, karaoke, etc. Slightly exaggerate the movement. Recover running normally for a while . Do it again.

2. Cadence. Pick up cadence by about 10 steps per minute. Do it for 20-30 seconds. DO NOT SPEED UP. It's a common problem that defeats the purpose of the drill. Recover running normally for a while. Repeat. Don't worry about "elbows back" or forefoot strike. Cadence Aficianado's suggestion of a metronome app is a GREAT idea. Set it to beat every left foot strike... 81 is your normal 162 cadence. Advance it to 85 (170 cadence) and run that cadence for 30 seconds. If you can handle a few 20 second reps, increase it to 87, 88, 89, 90. After you've done this for a few weeks, you'll find it becomes easier to hold the faster cadence longer. Build up to 1 minute. Then two minutes.

3. Forefoot strike. Lean forward with feet together until you start to fall forward. Run landing on your forefoot. Do the grass barefoot drill first if possible. Again, do it for 20-30 seconds. Recover running normally for a while. Repeat.

There's another drill, but you don't need to add it yet.

I'll respond to your email so you know I'm a real person. LOL