Note on 3/22/2023. This thread is from October of 2017. It's relevant in light of Zane Robertson's EPO suspension.
fist pump wrote:
Highlight of the sport these days to see cheaters get busted. But again it is a no-name athlete. Any of the big names (Dibaba etc..) at that hotel full of EPO are going to be protected for a good while and may even get away with it.
Zane was not at the hotel in Spain btw.
If Farah is guilty of "avoiding doping authorities" by training in Ethiopia, Jake and Zane are the dirtiest runners New Zealand has to offer.
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:
I'm sure Zane never was associated with Jama Aden. Instead, he trained for some time under Gemedu Degefu, the Ethiopian coach of the Demadonna Group, who is the coach of Guye Adola, Hayle Lemmi and Tsegay Mekonnen, among Others.
Posted the guy who claims EPO doesn't work on elite athletes.
Canova has never claimed this.
Unfortunately, it still isn't interesting. Another no -name gets busted, and another LR thread blathers on with bs.
Who tests the Robertsons?
Hi Renato,
I'm aware that you are a very extremely famous couch throughout running. I was wondering if you can couch me to become better because I wish I can get much faster? I would like to be your friend. You are my favourite couch because you trained Bekele. I'm not sure are you training him right now? Hope he is doing well, and literally your training him for a marathon world record next year. I can't wait. To mention Aden, Alberto and other couches here, they are dirty.
mindweak wrote:
made the claim that the olympic marathon is "watered down"
he claims olympic marathons are watered down.
I don't agree with everything he says but are the above statements not unreasonable? You have limitless numbers of Kenyans and Ethiopians who can compete in big city marathons but in the Olympics they are restricted to 3 per nation. Sure, now some of them do run for other countries via nationality rights but I would have though that the Olympics is still restricting them in numbers compared with many major city marathons...
Dr Zorzoli wrote:
Who tests the Robertsons?
Obviously the same people that test the rest of the Kenyans...
kapten obvious wrote:
Dr Zorzoli wrote:
Who tests the Robertsons?
Obviously the same people that test the rest of the Kenyans...
Who holds the stop watch for them?
duh its mo....and aden is holding the watch for mo...thats how it works
suga wrote:
Samuel DeChamplain wrote:
but if this was Rupp this would undoubtedly mean he is dirty obviously
So true!!!
The BloJos would post this as "Super Hot" on the homepage!
We don't make things "Super Hot." Super Hot is computer generated and based off of how many people are clicking on it from different IPs.
Whodunnit wrote:
kapten obvious wrote:
Obviously the same people that test the rest of the Kenyans...
Who holds the stop watch for them?
Who else, only one man has the expertise for that job.
"What you can't figure out" is an internal problem that is best solved by you. It's too simple (i.e. wrong) to think WADA bans drugs proven to "work". "Working" is neither sufficient, nor necessary, for WADA to ban a drug. The term "PED" is misleading, in anti-doping contexts. You could have researched for yourself what criteria WADA uses to ban drugs at WADA's website. It needs to (subjectively) satisfy two of three criteria: 1) "POTENTIAL" to improve performance; 2) harmful; 3) against the "spirit" of the sport Drugs that "work" can be "WADA approved" if they are not harmful, or against the spirit of the sport. Caffeine is a drug that is known to "work", but is not banned. WADA does not burden itself with the need to show that a drug "works", but can merely agree, by expert consensus, that their is a "potential" to improve performance. This is a matter of practicality, as actually proving a benefit in every case would be a legal nightmare with non-stop legal challenges grinding anti-doping efforts to a halt. It should also be noted that WADA is in charge of determining what to ban for ALL Olympic sports. What "works" in one sport, e.g. cycling, does not necessarily mean it works in other sports, e.g. running. These sports have different physiological demands and limitations.
mindweak wrote:
...
the one thing i still cant figure out, if EPO doesnt work, why is it banned?
...
Renato usually makes that claim for altitude born and raised that have trained enough to significantly increase their blood volume. One common response is that East Africans are not physiologically different than everyone else. Putting aside that there are known differences that suggest a reduced expectation of performance improvement, analyzing the elite performances of "everyone else" should give us an accurate indication of how well EPO "works". This week's "Week That Was", highlights the performance of Norway's Sondre Moen, significant in that he's now in the exclusive group of top-6 "Non-African born" men under 60 minutes, versus 136 African men, when the world record is nearly two minutes faster at 58:23. Looking at all endurance performances from all elite athletes from 5 continents over 2 decades, we find very few examples of non-African heritage men running sub-3:29 (1500m), sub-8:00 (steeple), sub-13:00 (5000m), sub-27:00 (10000m), sub-60:00 (half marathon), and sub 2:07 (marathon), compared to Africans. These are not thresholds close to world records, but formidable barriers for non-Africans that were broken routinely by Africans during and since the "EPO-era". A similar but less obvious observation can be made for the women, with the added complications that women can be high responders to steroids, and that culturally, African women were not always encouraged to compete. It's tempting to think that that's because the very best non-African athletes from 5 continents for two decades generally did not take EPO compared to Africans -- even during a time when EPO was undetectable for the first decade. This would be remarkable claim that has no precedent.
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:
I'm sure Zane never was associated with Jama Aden. Instead, he trained for some time under Gemedu Degefu, the Ethiopian coach of the Demadonna Group, who is the coach of Guye Adola, Hayle Lemmi and Tsegay Mekonnen, among Others.
Posted the guy who claims EPO doesn't work on elite athletes.
rekrunner wrote:
It's tempting to think that that's because the very best non-African athletes from 5 continents for two decades generally did not take EPO compared to Africans -- even during a time when EPO was undetectable for the first decade. This would be remarkable claim that has no precedent.
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
Posted the guy who claims EPO doesn't work on elite athletes.
False
All the top Spanish marathoners were clients of Fuentes and on EPO
The were winning major road and global marathon titles for years
rekrunner wrote:
Renato usually makes that claim for altitude born and raised that have trained enough to significantly increase their blood volume.
Indeed. He also readily admits that EPO works for everyone else, e. g. Farah, Rupp and Jager, to name a few fast elite runners on the "likely doping" list, which is only the tip of the iceberg, as per the Thüringen/Harvard study.
rekrunner wrote:
This week's "Week That Was", highlights the performance of Norway's Sondre Moen, significant in that he's now in the exclusive group of top-6 "Non-African born" men under 60 minutes, versus 136 African men, when the world record is nearly two minutes faster at 58:23.
Amazing, isn't it. So the clean Africans are so superior that they vastly outperform those who benefit from EPO, according to Canova.
And yet, there are Jeptoo and Sumgong, who improved quite a bit as EPO users, plus several Kenyans and Ethiopians including Asbel Kiprop + G. Mutai on the "likely doping" list, which, again, is only the tip of the iceberg as per the Thüringen/Harvard study. Remember that we already knew from the Poistogova and Savinova cases that one has to use quite a lot EPO to end up on the "likely doping" list - and still gets away with it because the IAAF experts can't agree to impose a ban.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Whodunnit wrote:
Who holds the stop watch for them?
Who else, only one man has the expertise for that job.
Well, now that Fudge and Farah have fallen out, the onus lies on Uncle Jama's shoulders.
And yet they all ran slow times. Recall I said "very few" ran "sub 2:07". Only 1 Spaniard ever did. The world record then was nearly 2 minutes faster. All of the Spanish marathoners, on EPO, could not run faster than the pre-"EPO era" world record from 1988. Saying *ALL* the Spanish marathoners were on EPO only strengthens the argument that EPO doesn't help run fast times. To rationalize the contradiction of the slow times, you'd have to argue that no one at the top of the top was taking it, something I agree with you is false.
False claim wrote:
False
All the top Spanish marathoners were clients of Fuentes and on EPO
The were winning major road and global marathon titles for years
I don't recall Renato readily admitting about everyone else. Rather, I recall him denying he was speaking about them in his "EPO cannot work" explanations. But when he doesn't train everyone else first hand, and doesn't use EPO first hand, I can see where even he might be wrong about EPO working for them, assuming he ever readily admitted that. The examples of Farah, and Rupp, and Jager, who ran their fast times post-ABP, cannot explain the lack of fast times from all non-Africans from 5 continents during the 2 decades of the "EPO-era", when EPO detection was either non-existent, or easy to beat. If an iceberg of athletes were using EPO, that makes the lack of fast times for all non-Africans from five continents for two decades even more puzzling. When EPO is not a good explanation for faster times "at the top", it is not so amazing to see non-EPO athletes vastly outperform EPO athletes. Many athletes have also improved "quite a bit" without using EPO, often from changing their training. We've also seen that high altitude can put you on the "likely doping" list, something common with East Africans, as well as many endurance athletes. There is no clear boundary -- that's why experts need to review on a case by case basis when ABP software flags profiles as "likely doping".
casual obsever wrote:
Indeed. He also readily admits that EPO works for everyone else, e. g. Farah, Rupp and Jager, to name a few fast elite runners on the "likely doping" list, which is only the tip of the iceberg, as per the Thüringen/Harvard study.
...
Amazing, isn't it. So the clean Africans are so superior that they vastly outperform those who benefit from EPO, according to Canova.
And yet, there are Jeptoo and Sumgong, who improved quite a bit as EPO users, plus several Kenyans and Ethiopians including Asbel Kiprop + G. Mutai on the "likely doping" list, which, again, is only the tip of the iceberg as per the Thüringen/Harvard study. Remember that we already knew from the Poistogova and Savinova cases that one has to use quite a lot EPO to end up on the "likely doping" list - and still gets away with it because the IAAF experts can't agree to impose a ban.
I think that you're just teasing us ⤵for kicks and giggles. Well anyone that works in the Stock market knows that the companies making EPO variants are making a fortune. Yet hardly anyone is failing a dope test for this, and a certain percentage of the drug is going straight into athletic enhancement. So obviously sweet stuff all is being detected. I have refuted the idea that countries didn’t have runners improve nation records in the 1989-2009 era. Only Britain, Finland and Sweden did not, and Finnish records were likely set by blood dopers. This was quite an achievement considering after birth control was introduced en masse in the late 1960s, western birth rates collapsed which coincidentally materialized itself in late 1980s/early 1990s talent pools.
rekrunner wrote:
I don't recall Renato readily admitting about everyone else. Rather, I recall him denying he was speaking about them in his "EPO cannot work" explanations. But when he doesn't train everyone else first hand, and doesn't use EPO first hand, I can see where even he might be wrong about EPO working for them, assuming he ever readily admitted that.
The examples of Farah, and Rupp, and Jager, who ran their fast times post-ABP, cannot explain the lack of fast times from all non-Africans from 5 continents during the 2 decades of the "EPO-era", when EPO detection was either non-existent, or easy to beat. If an iceberg of athletes were using EPO, that makes the lack of fast times for all non-Africans from five continents for two decades even more puzzling.
When EPO is not a good explanation for faster times "at the top", it is not so amazing to see non-EPO athletes vastly outperform EPO athletes.
Many athletes have also improved "quite a bit" without using EPO, often from changing their training.
We've also seen that high altitude can put you on the "likely doping" list, something common with East Africans, as well as many endurance athletes. There is no clear boundary -- that's why experts need to review on a case by case basis when ABP software flags profiles as "likely doping".
casual obsever wrote:
Indeed. He also readily admits that EPO works for everyone else, e. g. Farah, Rupp and Jager, to name a few fast elite runners on the "likely doping" list, which is only the tip of the iceberg, as per the Thüringen/Harvard study.
...
Amazing, isn't it. So the clean Africans are so superior that they vastly outperform those who benefit from EPO, according to Canova.
And yet, there are Jeptoo and Sumgong, who improved quite a bit as EPO users, plus several Kenyans and Ethiopians including Asbel Kiprop + G. Mutai on the "likely doping" list, which, again, is only the tip of the iceberg as per the Thüringen/Harvard study. Remember that we already knew from the Poistogova and Savinova cases that one has to use quite a lot EPO to end up on the "likely doping" list - and still gets away with it because the IAAF experts can't agree to impose a ban.
If 50% of athletes are on drugs, then some of the ex's are going to test positive.