why aren't there world class 400/800m guys?

test2 wrote:

wildlife wrote:

Harald Schmid and Jarmila Kratochvilova.

I think I forgot about Kratochvilova because I don't see her performances as legitimate. Granted many records may be be equally illegitimate for all that I know.

Schmid was mostly a 400m hurdler but ran a quick open 400. I wasn't aware he ran the 800.

Yep -- 1:44.83. And 20.68 for 200m.

calculo wrote:( albeit, I reckon Ryun in '66 & '67 had lines of fit on a '70s track of

'66 :

~ 44.25 / 1'40.00 ->

2'09.62

3'27.04

3'44.48

but improved distance in '67 at

~ 44.25 / 1'39.20 ->

2'08.31

3'24.20

3'41.27

his '67 800 performance equivalent for 400/200/100 I woud estimate at

42.60

19.05

9.52

i'd state without hesitation that Ryun was the most talented guy who ever stepped on a track from 100m - 10k until bolt who's 19.19 into a wind off stoopidly quick bend was probably 19.05 in 0 wind off sensible bend, but this was his 7 the or 8th race & can legitimately claim he couda run at worst 19-flat in a 1-off that meet

although I wouda add Ryun was only barely 20y when at season peak in '67 & bolt turned 23y the day after his 19.19 )

i'd offered Ryun same 400 speed at 18y here as

~ 44.25

if fully rested with 3'55.8 in his legs on sludge & running 440y relay ~ 20m back on anchor on same sludge with HUGE AMOUNT RUN WIDE ON BENDS for a fully rested, 1-off 400 on '70s track in this brief vid clip of anchor at end

( worth watching as this is 44-low ability at 18y off 1500 training !!! )

i gave him him same same 44.25 at 18y as 20y at peak in '67

it's 0 chance his 400 hadn't improved by '67, probably around

44.00

sounds reasonable

his 1500 is fixed at 3'24.20

i'm not posting

44.00 / 3'24.20 ->

800

1k

someone else can & convert to 400/200/100

someone impress me...

Different name same crap

ukathleticcoach wrote:Different name same crap

eh ?

impress me

bring you analytic skill to this vid, knowing he is 18y at time, running on total sludge for 3'55.8 JUST BEFORE, worth at worst 2s/400, let alone for 440y, then asked to anchor relay when 20 yards down, having to run HUGE EXTRA ON BENDS to get win

all achieved in

46.9y

now you've seen the vid, you assume it is the "perfect" "route-1" 440y that was prayed for earlier by some ?

I woud put this 2nd 880y, the legendary WR of

1'44.9y

in a fully rested, 1-off, 24-low / 49-mid, NO HUGE EXTRA ON BENDS, if fully healthy, no prelim earlier, on proper '70s synthetic, in this brief vid at barely

19y

at

~ 1'40.0

http://video.lib.ku.edu/items/show/1525

Putting percentages on aerobic/anaerobic is misleading. What really matters is phases of the race - first 30 to 40 seconds is "anaerobic" in the sense that aerobic needs that much time to kick in. This is because "aerobic" doesn't reach its full potential until the pH level in muscle drops. Even then, you can't really separate them because the "aerobic" is a vital ingredient in clearing the acid produced by the anaerobic.

It's easy enough for a good 400 runner to do the training necessary to get the "aerobic" element that can hold their form another lap. But the competitive system that trains them, invariably the NCAA for the best 400 runners, is stacked against this. Coaches won't waste their best 400 runner on the 800 when they can earn more points running relays or doubling on shorter sprints.

Get rid of 4x400 relays and 400h and there would quickly be a lot more good 800 runners.

The 800 is primarily aerobic with vast the majority being dimuinitive, thin runners that look no different than milers & 5000 guys. You don’t have any of the big, muscular, powerful 400 guys (e.g., LaShawn Merritt, Gil Roberts 💪) ever being able to run the 800. Good genetics for endurance and being built like a 5000 guy are the prerequisite for a successful 800 🤔.

600M record is 12.79% slower than 400.

800M

Thunder Thighs wrote:The 800 is primarily aerobic with vast the majority being dimuinitive, thin runners that look no different than milers & 5000 guys. You don’t have any of the big, muscular, powerful 400 guys (e.g., LaShawn Merritt, Gil Roberts 💪) ever being able to run the 800. Good genetics for endurance and being built like a 5000 guy are the prerequisite for a successful 800 🤔.

Ryun was 6'2 with massive thighs

The 800m/880yds record was on a synthetic track, that was hand timed and may have been short. The difference between between rolled cinders and synthetic was 0.05-0.1 per 100m or even less. Heck there was no non-altitude gains between hard clay and synthetic tracks for the 100m event.

What the fck wrote: What is this horseshit?

1:40 for Niekerk?

No you dolt. It's 1:39...for RYUN! Don't you know anything??!!

Thunder Thighs wrote:

The 800 is primarily aerobic with vast the majority being dimuinitive, thin runners that look no different than milers & 5000 guys. You don’t have any of the big, muscular, powerful 400 guys (e.g., LaShawn Merritt, Gil Roberts 💪) ever being able to run the 800. Good genetics for endurance and being built like a 5000 guy are the prerequisite for a successful 800 🤔.

Like Nick Symmonds.

Holy shit lmao did you just put 19 year old Ryun at 44.0 / 1:40.0 ahahahahaha these forums are great.

Physiologists, David Martin, PhD and Owen Anderson, PhD state the Olympic event which predicts 800 metres success most is the 400 metres.

Bad Wigins made a good point, stating 4x400 metres relay and 400mH. At Olympic Trials, top six for a country make nation's 4x400 metres relay.

If 800 metres were a clean race like 400 metres & 400mH, more athletes would race 800 metres. Clean 800 metres race would be a four turn stagger.

There is a more natural overlap in Kenya with 400/800. Kenya can be good at 4x400 metres. Kenyan men 4x400 metres team, 2012 Olympics DQ'd due to a lane violation.

In US, college XC scares many high school 400/800 athletes away from 800m. Not all good high school 400/800 athletes participate in XC.

Only two men have raced sub-45/sub-1:44, 400/800; Mark Everett, 44.59/1:43.20 & Alberto Juantorena, 44.26/1:43.44

You must be too young to remember Alberto Juantorena. Winning Olympic gold at both 400m and 800m in the same games is difficult even when juiced to the eyeballs.

no

it was on asphalt, which was a semi-synthetic nonsense, soft & "clinging" at best & on hot days was utterly sapping

it was terrible general surface to run on when weather hot & I doubt terre haute was cold in june-'66

is this a joke ?

it was '66 !

all times were hand-timed back-then & multiple timers for a guy like Ryun, biggest middle-distance star then

did you not know this ?!

is this a joke ?

this was no mickey-mouse unknown firenze meet run on laughable 6 lane track !

Terre-Haute was a "US Championships" on a 8 lane track

is this a joke ?

I laugh to even ask your source ?!

i'll just offer Epstein offering 1.015 conversion for assumed pristine dirt to a synthetic

what is this utter nonsense ?

El Caballo de las Cuba wrote:

nah fam wrote:

The thing is, 44-low is almost definitely the absolute ceiling for some of those guys--nobody's run sub 44 without serious 100m speed (10.3 or faster?). Also keep in mind that the 400/800 double is one of the most difficult doubles in the sport (probably next to 400H/800 and 3000St/1500) and an athlete who's a serious medal threat in the 8 doesn't want to tire himself out running rounds of the 4.

Also I'm probably overestimating the 400m ability of some of those guys. I thought Tuka had a 45 mid PR but he's actually got 46 from last year, Amos has a 44.9 relay split, and Bosse hasn't actually run an open 400.

You must be too young to remember Alberto Juantorena. Winning Olympic gold at both 400m and 800m in the same games is difficult even when juiced to the eyeballs.

????? What does Juantorena have to do with my post? I'm well aware that he doubled 4/8; everything I said still holds true in the general scheme of things--especially now that the 400 is won in sub-44s rather than 44 kids.

top tier contributor wrote:

Holy shit lmao did you just put 19 year old Ryun at 44.0 / 1:40.0 ahahahahaha these forums are great

No

I put him in early/mid '66 at late-18y / early-19y on a '70s track at ~

44.25 / 1'40.00 ->

2'09.63

3'27.05

3'44.50

'67 woud be an utterly frightening beast...

calculo wrote:

I put him in early/mid '66 at late-18y / early-19y on a '70s track at ~

44.25 / 1'40.00 ->

2'09.63

3'27.05

3'44.50

'67 woud be an utterly frightening beast...

Lotta interest here on board with euro indoors

cram seems once to have been a commentator, whether he is now, i unknow

he shoud "know", his 1-off '86-edinburgh shape in 70F with 0 wind, smoothly drafted to bell, route-1, was likely

~ 1'41-low

It's nothing compared to above in Terre Haute if 1-off, if fully healthy / rested, route-1, drafted to bell on a '70s track :

'67 though, woud be an utterly frightening beast !!!