Soooooo..a doper has medals stripped which are then given to a bigger doper?? This is a good thing?
Soooooo..a doper has medals stripped which are then given to a bigger doper?? This is a good thing?
1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon.
But you same people will say Galen is a doper, I don't follow this logic of reasoning
Anon wrote:
She was in all likelihood running her last trials, and with Wilson not in top form, she had an excellent chance of making the team.
Montaño is an excellent athlete who I've been a fan of for many years, but if you have experience with the 800 and you watch her race at 2016 trials, you'll realize that this is simply not true. If you open hard to separate from the field at the gun and you're being swallowed back into the pack at 600, you don't win. Hell, you generally finish towards the back.
Montaño was tying up, started to slow, and there was some contact with Martinez. I don't think the contact was Montaño's fault (if you're tying up, you're going to slow down, and the 800 generally has more contact than any other distance) but it took Martinez out--Montaño was already a non contender.
Also, no reason to critique her 800 pacing. That's how 4/8 runners--especially converted 400 runners--run their best times. In a race between a 4/8 runner and an 8/15 runner of similar fitness levels, the 4/8 athlete wins by getting enough separation from the 8/15 runner by the last 150 that the 8/15 athlete can't make it up during the kick.
The thing about the 800 is that the kick isn't about raw speed; aside from really slow races (a la Rudisha's 1:45-mid from Beijing WCs), the last 150m isn't "who can kick harder," it's "who can tie up less." For a good example, look at Symmonds v. Solomon from 2010 through 2012: very similar 800 fitness, but Solomon finished ahead in fast races where he could open a large gap on Symmonds by 600m.
I'd imagine that if Montaño had tried the 60/60 that the 8/15 athletes run, she wouldn't have been competitive. The 4/8 athlete running even splits is going to tie up horribly in the last 150 relative to the 8/15 athletes.
Don't Hate wrote:
1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon.
I think Alysia is clean, but part of your argument makes no sense ("How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?") Natural talent always trumps doping. If both athletes were heavily doping and the doping regime was correct for both of them then the athlete with greater talent will win (assuming motivation and mental toughness are approximately equal). Savinova is a doper but she has greater natural talent for the 800m than Alysia and is likely better coached than Alysia. No knock on Alysia I'm very happy for her but we shouldn't let our critical thinking turn to mush because of some emotional attachment.
Stay logical wrote:
Don't Hate wrote:1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon.
I think Alysia is clean, but part of your argument makes no sense ("How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?") Natural talent always trumps doping. If both athletes were heavily doping and the doping regime was correct for both of them then the athlete with greater talent will win (assuming motivation and mental toughness are approximately equal). Savinova is a doper but she has greater natural talent for the 800m than Alysia and is likely better coached than Alysia. No knock on Alysia I'm very happy for her but we shouldn't let our critical thinking turn to mush because of some emotional attachment.
With the first point, I was referring to the commenter above my initial post stating the medal was stripped and handed to an even bigger doper. Your point about Savinove being a greater natural talent I would argue to be hard to prove because her times were pedestrian compared to Alysia at the same age until 2010(When Savinova allegedly began doping, Savinova was the 2010 Indoor World Champion so it could be argued Alysia should be elevated from bronze to silver in that race too). I don't think there are many who have more natural talent than a 1:59 runner as a Junior in college(2007) and claiming the #1 ranking in the country.(2008)
Don't Hate wrote:
Stay logical wrote:I think Alysia is clean, but part of your argument makes no sense ("How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?") Natural talent always trumps doping. If both athletes were heavily doping and the doping regime was correct for both of them then the athlete with greater talent will win (assuming motivation and mental toughness are approximately equal). Savinova is a doper but she has greater natural talent for the 800m than Alysia and is likely better coached than Alysia. No knock on Alysia I'm very happy for her but we shouldn't let our critical thinking turn to mush because of some emotional attachment.
With the first point, I was referring to the commenter above my initial post stating the medal was stripped and handed to an even bigger doper. Your point about Savinove being a greater natural talent I would argue to be hard to prove because her times were pedestrian compared to Alysia at the same age until 2010(When Savinova allegedly began doping, Savinova was the 2010 Indoor World Champion so it could be argued Alysia should be elevated from bronze to silver in that race too). I don't think there are many who have more natural talent than a 1:59 runner as a Junior in college(2007) and claiming the #1 ranking in the country.(2008)
I think Alysia is clean too BTW.
Don't Hate wrote:
1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
Savinova has run 1:56. She is a bigger talent and for Montano to be close she would have to dope more, and she looks like she does.
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
RUSADA is also one of the world leaders in drug testing...I don't trust any of those agencies.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
SAVINOVA progression:
2013 1:57.80 Moskva (Luzhniki) 18 AUG
2012 1:56.19 London (Olympic Stadium) 11 AUG
2011 1:55.87 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.56 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 03 JUL
2009 1:57.90 Moskva 01 JUL
2008 2:01.07 Dessau 30 MAY
2007 2:00.78 Chelyabinsk
MONTANO progression:
016 2:00.20 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 02 JUL
2015 1:59.15 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 28 JUN
2013 1:57.75 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL
2012 1:57.37 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 01 JUN
2011 1:57.48 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.34 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 22 JUL
2009 2:01.09 Leverkusen 31 JUL
2008 2:00.57 Tempe, AZ 17 MAY
2007 1:59.29 Sacramento, CA 09 JUN
2006 2:01.80 Indianapolis, IN 25 JUN
2005 2:05.49 Sacramento, CA 08 JUN
Montano's 2:05.49 to 2:01.80 is more of red flag than anything Savinova has shown
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
I don't know who she looks like but she certainly has a mans face and body.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
Not the OP, but I myself dont hate, I stay objective.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
There arent that many great 800m runners from the US. male or female.
Borza is better than any male US runner.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon. cool
Alternate Reality wrote:
I understand the sentiment, but let's be clear.
She did not just win two medals.
She was awarded the two medals.
Winning is based on the performance in the actual race.
Without the Russian, does the race play out differently?
Congrats on using semantics to become the the most saturated douche of LRC this week !
california dreamin' wrote:
Also, no reason to critique her 800 pacing. That's how 4/8 runners--especially converted 400 runners--run their best times. In a race between a 4/8 runner and an 8/15 runner of similar fitness levels, the 4/8 athlete wins by getting enough separation from the 8/15 runner by the last 150 that the 8/15 athlete can't make it up during the kick.
The thing about the 800 is that the kick isn't about raw speed; aside from really slow races (a la Rudisha's 1:45-mid from Beijing WCs), the last 150m isn't "who can kick harder," it's "who can tie up less." For a good example, look at Symmonds v. Solomon from 2010 through 2012: very similar 800 fitness, but Solomon finished ahead in fast races where he could open a large gap on Symmonds by 600m.
I'd imagine that if Montaño had tried the 60/60 that the 8/15 athletes run, she wouldn't have been competitive. The 4/8 athlete running even splits is going to tie up horribly in the last 150 relative to the 8/15 athletes.
Pseudo-science.
seriousity? wrote:
Don't Hate wrote:1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
Savinova has run 1:56. She is a bigger talent and for Montano to be close she would have to dope more, and she looks like she does.
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
RUSADA is also one of the world leaders in drug testing...I don't trust any of those agencies.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
SAVINOVA progression:
2013 1:57.80 Moskva (Luzhniki) 18 AUG
2012 1:56.19 London (Olympic Stadium) 11 AUG
2011 1:55.87 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.56 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 03 JUL
2009 1:57.90 Moskva 01 JUL
2008 2:01.07 Dessau 30 MAY
2007 2:00.78 Chelyabinsk
MONTANO progression:
016 2:00.20 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 02 JUL
2015 1:59.15 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 28 JUN
2013 1:57.75 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL
2012 1:57.37 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 01 JUN
2011 1:57.48 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.34 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 22 JUL
2009 2:01.09 Leverkusen 31 JUL
2008 2:00.57 Tempe, AZ 17 MAY
2007 1:59.29 Sacramento, CA 09 JUN
2006 2:01.80 Indianapolis, IN 25 JUN
2005 2:05.49 Sacramento, CA 08 JUN
Montano's 2:05.49 to 2:01.80 is more of red flag than anything Savinova has shown
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
I don't know who she looks like but she certainly has a mans face and body.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
Not the OP, but I myself dont hate, I stay objective.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
There arent that many great 800m runners from the US. male or female.
Borza is better than any male US runner.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon. cool
Big jumps in time above 2 minutes happens all the time because those are usually race tactics/situations/adjustments. Jumps in times under 2 minutes are attributed to fitness gains.
Alternate Reality wrote:
I understand the sentiment, but let's be clear.
She did not just win two medals.
She was awarded the two medals.
Winning is based on the performance in the actual race.
Without the Russian, does the race play out differently?
Yes, Alysia Medals as she should have... If you watch the race Savinova does pull other runners with her as she passes, without Savinova you could argue there would not be a train to jump on.
seriousity? wrote:
Don't Hate wrote:1. How is Alysia a bigger doper if she finished behind the Russian wouldn't Savinova be the bigger doper?
Savinova has run 1:56. She is a bigger talent and for Montano to be close she would have to dope more, and she looks like she does.
2. USADA is the world leader in drug testing and has actually hired Alysia several times for speaking engagements and have done features on her. I am pretty sure they would not if there were any doubt of her integrity.
RUSADA is also one of the world leaders in drug testing...I don't trust any of those agencies.
3. Alysia has a perfect progression of performance from highschool to college to pro and like history shows 400/800 runners are most dominant.
SAVINOVA progression:
2013 1:57.80 Moskva (Luzhniki) 18 AUG
2012 1:56.19 London (Olympic Stadium) 11 AUG
2011 1:55.87 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.56 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 03 JUL
2009 1:57.90 Moskva 01 JUL
2008 2:01.07 Dessau 30 MAY
2007 2:00.78 Chelyabinsk
MONTANO progression:
016 2:00.20 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 02 JUL
2015 1:59.15 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 28 JUN
2013 1:57.75 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL
2012 1:57.37 Eugene (Hayward Field), OR 01 JUN
2011 1:57.48 Daegu (DS) 04 SEP
2010 1:57.34 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 22 JUL
2009 2:01.09 Leverkusen 31 JUL
2008 2:00.57 Tempe, AZ 17 MAY
2007 1:59.29 Sacramento, CA 09 JUN
2006 2:01.80 Indianapolis, IN 25 JUN
2005 2:05.49 Sacramento, CA 08 JUN
Montano's 2:05.49 to 2:01.80 is more of red flag than anything Savinova has shown
4. She looks nothing like Lebron.
I don't know who she looks like but she certainly has a mans face and body.
5. You just sound like a hater because your favorite 800 runner just can't seem to stay consistent.
Not the OP, but I myself dont hate, I stay objective.
6. Alysia Just became the most decorated and dominaant female 800m runner in US history and most likely wont be matched for years to come.
There arent that many great 800m runners from the US. male or female.
Borza is better than any male US runner.
7. Don't kill yourself when she gets upgraded to the Olympic Bronze soon. cool
RUSADA is the leader for covering up drug tests
What I think is; Alysia is clean and can run 1:57, Savinova is a doper who ran 1:55, If the playing grounds were fair it would be close.
I would like to see a list of all female 800m runners who have run 1:55 or better. Then we can make an estimate on who is clean or dirty. We can also exclude the intersex athletes from this list
Tryna think wrote:
But you same people will say Galen is a doper, I don't follow this logic of reasoning
In case you're forgetting, ACTUAL EVIDENCE -- a document indicating Rupp was on a "testosterone medication" has surfaced publicly. No such evidence (except on Letsrun boards) has ever emerged about Montano.
california dreamin' wrote:
Anon wrote:She was in all likelihood running her last trials, and with Wilson not in top form, she had an excellent chance of making the team.
Montaño is an excellent athlete who I've been a fan of for many years, but if you have experience with the 800 and you watch her race at 2016 trials, you'll realize that this is simply not true. If you open hard to separate from the field at the gun and you're being swallowed back into the pack at 600, you don't win. Hell, you generally finish towards the back.
Montaño was tying up, started to slow, and there was some contact with Martinez. I don't think the contact was Montaño's fault (if you're tying up, you're going to slow down, and the 800 generally has more contact than any other distance) but it took Martinez out--Montaño was already a non contender.
It was already confirmed by Brenda's agent that initial contact was between Rogers and Martinez. Martinez' left foot swings through and hits Rogers' planted right leg
california dreamin' wrote:
I'd imagine that if Montaño had tried the 60/60 that the 8/15 athletes run, she wouldn't have been competitive. The 4/8 athlete running even splits is going to tie up horribly in the last 150 relative to the 8/15 athletes.
That makes no sense. The slower and more even the pace, the greater chance for the sprinter to win. Tying up has nothing to do with the type of runner you are. Tying up means you went out faster than your ability.
Logik wrote:
california dreamin' wrote:I'd imagine that if Montaño had tried the 60/60 that the 8/15 athletes run, she wouldn't have been competitive. The 4/8 athlete running even splits is going to tie up horribly in the last 150 relative to the 8/15 athletes.
That makes no sense. The slower and more even the pace, the greater chance for the sprinter to win. Tying up has nothing to do with the type of runner you are. Tying up means you went out faster than your ability.
Alysia has won all her US titles the same way because she was the only 4/8 runner in the field. No one has legitimately beat her at the US Champs since 2007. One race where she did change her tactics was the last Prefontaine where she kicked away the US field. Although it was a slow time I think it was a windy and cold night in Eugene. History in the 800 shows fast times come from a fast first lap unless you dope or are intersex then you can run a negative split easily.
exactly sir wrote:
Logik wrote:That makes no sense. The slower and more even the pace, the greater chance for the sprinter to win. Tying up has nothing to do with the type of runner you are. Tying up means you went out faster than your ability.
Alysia has won all her US titles the same way because she was the only 4/8 runner in the field. No one has legitimately beat her at the US Champs since 2007. One race where she did change her tactics was the last Prefontaine where she kicked away the US field. Although it was a slow time I think it was a windy and cold night in Eugene. History in the 800 shows fast times come from a fast first lap unless you dope or are intersex then you can run a negative split easily.
Oh and her last US title after coming back from pregnancy she sat and kicked passed Martinez and Co.
Anon wrote:
Congrats to Alysia!
I think that she is likeable.
I think it's important to note that she has paid an enormously high price for Russian doping. Remember, she was dropped by Nike after making an Oly team (among many other accomplishments) and did not receive bonuses for the medals that she now stands to receive. Whatever deal she had with Asics likely wasn't great, and it appears to be over now anyway. Yes, she was upset after the trials. I have no issue with that. When you put your heart out there for years, and devote your life to running two laps around the track as fast as possible -- KNOWING that it's probably your last Olympic trials, knowing that you are dealing with dopers who stole medals and money, knowing that you are dealing with intersex athletes -- I can't even begin to imagine the grief and frustration. She gets a pass from me. Her reaction was raw and honest -- and life is sometimes messy.
No way am I going to Monday morning quarterback her reaction.
Do people actually use these bs expressions in America in real life!