Can I get to a sub 2:40 Marathon?

Richard wrote:

The arithmetic is pretty clear it seems. If a runner cannot run a 6 minute pacing split for a 1/2 marathon, it is impossible that he/she could could do the 6 minute pacing require for a full marathon i.e. 2:39 or less. The attrition rate after 20 miles alone would decimate that expectation. The 1/2 needs to be a minimum of 1:11 to 1:13 range which, when given the combination of a sufficient amount of long runs, 15-20 miles, and anaerobic speed sessions or sub 6 minute 10Ks in the training mode, might on a perfect day get an athlete slightly under 2:40. Breaking 3 hours is a totally different discussion that a sub 2:40. It takes years of healthy running in the training environment, tremendous motivation, combined with good luck and a sense of true pacing on race day to break 2:40.

You don't need to be that fast for the half in order to go "slightly under 2h40". Even a sub 1h16 for the Half can get you there, considering that long runs are going great in training and weekly mileage at least 60. With 1h11 as you mention a runner can aim to go sub 2h30 and not sub 2h40.

ishfish1 wrote:

Last weekend I ran the Miami Half Marathon in about 1:22:10. I would like to qualify for the Boston Marathon at the Eugene Marathon on the weekend of May 9.

Can I hit 2:40 by then? I have about 14 weeks to train. What do I need to do in my workouts to get to that point?

5-6 half marathons with a PR of 1:21:10 (Houston 2016)

No. You can't run sub 2:40. You need a 1:15 half. You are way off. You've done lots of halfs and are stagnating at 1:21/1:22.

The good news is 40mpw is low mileage. If you bump your miles to 60-80mpw, you might get there next year.

No way bro. I went 2:43 off of a 1:16:30 half seven weeks prior.

This year at CIM I ran 2:36...with a 1:13:30 four weeks prior. My buddy dipped under 2:40 that same day at CIM. He ran 1:16 in the half four weeks prior and a sub 16 5k a few weeks before that.

You weekly mileage and your average pace over those miles is a factor, but more importantly is what you do during your week. Find a plan that has you running around 3-6 miles a week of sub tempo pace, 3-6 miles of tempo, and a long run of 1:30 - 2 hours. Do that every week......over and over...and over. Then...keep doing that. Stack week over week. Keep racing halfs (2-3) a year and a marathon a year. The key is consistency. I'm closing in on 40, but I'm still dropping time, because I keep to this routine.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I see I've been pretty naive to think that 2:40 was attainable by my current training standards. I will shoot for mid to low 50's at Eugene and try to bump up mileage slowly with emphasis on long runs and tempo runs and interval training at or near marathon pace.

It's interesting how some people advocate slow weekday runs and a fast long run while others advocate fast 6-8 mile runs on weekdays and a long slow weekend run.

I agree with most on here. I had several failed attempts at 2:40 with a 1:15 half PR and 45 miles per week. Given your problems in your first marathon I'd aim for 2:55 or even 2:59 (you can always speed up in the last few miles if you're feeling good). It would be a shame to blow up and have another painful unenjoyable experience. Then I'd spend the rest of the year doing half marathon training to get your pr down to 1:15.

Something no one has mentioned is that it gets exponentially harder to get faster the faster you get. It's not a linear relationship. So you'll need to work a lot harder for smaller gains at the top end.

When I ran 2:36 at altitude I was running 80-90/week, and had a long history of HS and college running under my belt.

You just need to put in the miles (or have put in the miles at some point in your past). If you're coming in without a significant background of running you're going to have to put in the work to get there. Remember that sub 2:40 is fairly elite for amateurs (i.e. there are going to be very few races you're out of the top 10 or 20).

I would suggest getting with a local training group and that will make adding the miles a lot easier, and push you to better workouts. In view it's the runs outside of the long run where you really start to build the strength you need for the marathon. I'm not saying to blast your recovery/easy days, but you need to slowly build them longer and longer over time, so you learn to run tired.

I've run sub 2:40 five times. After the first time I did it I boiled down the schedule to the below week. If I do it for 8-10 weeks I will be in sub 2:40 shape. I would advise taking a month to just build up to doing the entire week, so 12 weeks total.

Monday - 60 minutes easy

Tuesday - 90 to 110 minutes easy

Wednesday - 60 minutes total. 3 weeks of 20 x (200M by 200M fartlek). First 200M should be current 10K effort and second 200M marathon effort. Change this to 400's, then 600's, 800's, 1K's, mile repeats. 5 miles total. Repeats always at 10K effort. 90 to 100 seconds rest.

Thursday - 90 to 110 minutes easy

Friday - 40 minutes easy

Saturday - 75 minutes total. 50 to 60 minute tempo @ 82-85% max HR. You can work this up as high as 90%.

Sunday - Long, 120 minutes building up to 150 minutes.

I've tried tweaking this but have found that the key elements are the 3 long runs and the Saturday workout.

If you can't run 10 miles under 60 minutes any day of the week you won't break 2:40. Before I had broken 2:40 I had run many halves under 1:20. If you are not running long frequently it won't matter.

You can do it with consistent work at marathon effort and volume. DO NOT think miles, put in the time.

Miami is humid AF, so you may be closer to your goal than most people think, but you still have a ways to go young jedi. Run more.

Nubbins here (physio) wrote:

Ironically, I'm running Eugene with a similar time goal, as others have said though, my PR is down around 1:15.

There is nothing remotely ironic about this

Thanks All wrote:

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I see I've been pretty naive to think that 2:40 was attainable by my current training standards. I will shoot for mid to low 50's at Eugene and try to bump up mileage slowly with emphasis on long runs and tempo runs and interval training at or near marathon pace.

It's interesting how some people advocate slow weekday runs and a fast long run while others advocate fast 6-8 mile runs on weekdays and a long slow weekend run.

Why do you have to bump mileage gradually? You can go to 80-90 mpw now. Just fight the fatigue

"Rule of thumb" says double your half time and add 7 minute.

Eg "Wanjiru" estimate ability 58.5 x 3 = 1:57

+ 7 ----> 2:04 ability

If you have 1:20 ability based on that race, 2:47 should be a breeze. Start at 2:40 pace and then even if you bonk you break the big 2-FIFTY!

Your training is identical to how I currently run and how I have run my 3 marathons. I am currently in about 1:15 half shape but could not touch 2:40 because I don't run enough. First marathon I ran 2:47 which is my PR, off of 40 miles a week and two months of training for it. Second was Boston ran 2:48 off of similar training due to injury that prevented a longer build up. One thing iv come to understand is that if I want to run a decent marathon I need to increase mileage. Iv found it's easy to get to a certain level but anything beyond that will require more miles. My advice is get the long run up to 15+ miles and do some long tempos mid week. Throw in a track work out to mix it up every so often. Your looking at a 2:47- 3hr marathon depending on how it all goes. Good luck!

It is quite strange how this forum works, by what I have noticed, people are jealous and really do not want people to run quick times so they offer bad advice or look to discourage you from trying. Please disregard most of the replies on here.

I have personally seen a dude go from 1:22 half / 3:10 full to a 1:13 half 2:34 full in one cycle from boosting from 40 to 80mpw.

SleepWalker wrote:

It is quite strange how this forum works, by what I have noticed, people are jealous and really do not want people to run quick times so they offer bad advice or look to discourage you from trying. Please disregard most of the replies on here.

I have personally seen a dude go from 1:22 half / 3:10 full to a 1:13 half 2:34 full in one cycle from boosting from 40 to 80mpw.

I disagree lots of good advice was offered up based on him running 40 miles a week. Many people have said the same thing which is to run more miles. I don't recall seeing a post where someone said he couldn't run 2:40 ever. He is in the same situation I am in. If we want to run 2:40 or better we need to bump our mileage. Most people have said it would be very difficult to run that fast when your half is only 1:22 and you run low mileage. If anything you have brought negativity to this thread. He has 14 weeks to build up to the next race. When you say in one cycle how long is that ecactly? also had this dude you known run high mileage before? Doubling mileage that quickly is a great way to end up injured. Everyone is diff though but I'm never going to tell someone to double the mileage in an effort to achieve a time that is faster then doubling he/she's current half best. It's better to focus on workouts and a slight increase in mileage at a slower pace. He needs to focus on running a sub 2:55 marathon at his upcoming race. Then pick another marathon the next year and work your way up to being able to run higher mileage.

Buy a plan from Daniels and see how it compares to yours.

good investment

I agree with this guy 100%. Seems very close to me..I'm forty, about to turn 41. Ten marathons, first at thirty years old. I've run 245 a few times averaging, less than fifty, 2:48 several times averaging just about forty per week. I think ive done about ten weeks total in ten years at sixty, about four at seventy mpw. They key for me is getting the long runs, 5-8@ 18-22 and busting my ass on hilly tempo runs 6-8 miles. Once a week, maybe twice when I was a little younger. I'll also do a ten or twelve with a few fast miles in the mix. I've always been a very low mileage runner, believing in quality miles rather than quantity. I think different things work for different people. Make sure you're seeing improvement, and build on that. Simple science. A lot can be done on on lower mileage, and focusing on key workouts, that's what I stress. I'm trying lower 2:40s in about two months, currently a few weeks at sixty mpw, maybe peak at seventy. We'll see how that goes..good luck.