Bishop = Olympic champ wrote:
He has testicles and no womb or ovaries. The IAAF even offered to pay for him to undergo an orchidectomy to have them removed.
Can you provide links to support these assertions?
Or does quoting non-experts like Gladwell constitute definitive arguments?
lkjy wrote:
I believe Semenya is a woman, born a woman.
I believe Ms. Bishop needs to train harder. Semenya is not the WR holder. If Bishop could run 1:54 consistently, she would have no issues with Semenya.
Well, as long as you have a belief system that flies in the face of all known facts and evidence in this matter, Semenya should continue to compete as a woman.
Bishop = Olympic champ wrote:
Old men wrote:Do you know why she has no male genitalia?
He has testicles and no womb or ovaries. The IAAF even offered to pay for him to undergo an orchidectomy to have them removed.
Semenya declined. Without his balls, even though he possesses other male physiological advantages, it's unlikely that he would remain competitive against the best women in the World.
Semenya is an opportunist.
You are struggling. Answer the question I asked.
Do you know why she has no male genitalia?
Yes, I do have all the evidence.
I posted about ten messages on trackie.ca that, in exhaustive detail, explained everything.
From the the stupid CAS ruling, to the two types of hyperandrogenism, to Caster Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui being men . . etc etc.
I went to trackie.ca today to get those messages so that I could post them here . . . and . . . . guess what?
The entire f---ing thread is gone!
Those bitch ass Canuck mo-fo's are such scared PC pussies that they deleted not just my posts, but they deleted the entire thread.
Why are the top 800m women so crap compared to the other elite women?
Top performances 2016:
100m: 10.7 vs 9.8 is 91.5%
200m: 21.78 vs 19.74 90.6%
800m: 1:57.02 vs 1:42.15 87.2%
1500m: 3:55.2 vs 3:29.3 89%
5000m: 14:12 vs 12:59 91.4%
10000m: 29:17 vs 26:51 91.7%
90% compared to 1:42.15 is 1:53.5.
Food for thought.
Here are the excerpts from articles that shed some light on this issue:



[1] This article:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold


states: 


". . . the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it." 



[2] Here:


it is written: 


"last summer, came the decision that looks to have changed all that when the Court of Arbitration for Sport scrapped regulations imposed by athletics’ governing body that required female athletes to take testosterone-lowering medication if their hormone levels were above a certain level. 

Semenya’s coach insists that decision is not the reason for the South African’s subsequent improvement, but it is hard to believe him."



[3] Malcolm Gladwell says in this article:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/caster-semenya-and-the-logic-of-olympic-competition



"When Semenya’s testosterone was lowered to “normal†levels, she ran in the two-minute range for the eight hundred metres, which put her comfortably among the best in the world. Now that that restriction has been lifted, she is running six seconds faster. She has gone from being very good to being, potentially, the greatest half-miler in the history of women’s running. No one will beat her in Rio. She could run the last fifty yards backward and still win. How do you think the other women in that race feel about that?"



[4] and finally in this Toronto star article it states: 





"Semenya could compete, the IAAF concluded, but only if she — and any other female athlete with the condition — took medication that suppressed her testosterone levels. A benchmark was set, disallowing women to compete as women if their testosterone levels were roughly three times higher than testosterone naturally occurring in 99 per cent of female athletes. 

Semenya is not known to have made any objection and presumably embarked on the corrective regimen. Her times fell off precipitously.â€
Relativity wrote:
Why are the top 800m women so crap compared to the other elite women?
Top performances 2016:
100m: 10.7 vs 9.8 is 91.5%
200m: 21.78 vs 19.74 90.6%
800m: 1:57.02 vs 1:42.15 87.2%
1500m: 3:55.2 vs 3:29.3 89%
5000m: 14:12 vs 12:59 91.4%
10000m: 29:17 vs 26:51 91.7%
90% compared to 1:42.15 is 1:53.5.
Food for thought.
That is interesting. It appears that women's general disadvantage in athletic performance (when compared to men) is especially pronounced for the 800 M event. My first thought about why this might be the case is that the 800 is a sort of "crossroads" event that requires both sprint talent and distance talent. Since women generally have less athletic talent than men (in both sprint and distance) then their disadvantage is "doubled-up" in the 800. Another thought, this combined female disadvantage in the 800 may be why those individuals with abnormal "male" traits (hermaphrodite/hypogonad../etc.), tend to rise to world class level. In other words, the women's 800 is the easiest event for someone who is not "fully" female to avoid the disadvantage that female biology gives.
You cannot say that it is a fair competition when testosterone levels, which have been regulated for decades, are vastly, vastly different in Semenya and probably Wambui and maybe Niyonsaba, than in the rest of the field. Semenya looks like a man, has the build of a man, acts like a man, talks like a man, has the testosterone levels of a man, and easily, easily trounces the field--and would probably have walked off with the 400m title as well, maybe the 1500m too. But it would have been too risky, killing the golden goose, to win an unprecedented 400m/800m/1500m troika at the Olympics (Semenya did this as South African champs, I believe).
Going by time from the IAAF website (which tellingly had a picture of Melissa Bishop on the page for 800m lists:
https://www.iaaf.org/disciplines/middlelong/800-metres
), the real female rankings for 2016 look like Bishop, Jozhik, Sum. Sharp also had a bunch of fast times. Jozhik, being from Eastern Europe, has got to be suspicious, of course. The Eastern Bloc cheating continues as if it were the 1980s, as the Russian scandal and the Olympic positive tests prove.
I don't think that Letsrun should accede to the absurdity of Caster Semenya competing against women and rank Semenya first. Nor Niyonsaba and Wambui 2 and 3, though they were the best runners competing in the women's 800m by far.
Bishop's 12-pack abdomen is pretty clear evidence of PED use. Next.
I think the issue is two-fold for women over 800m, and in my coaching experience (2:05 for 800m females in NCAA DI), here are some conclusions-
1> There is a mental barrier at 2:00.0.. women think that if they nail this barrier, they "have made it" and only work to run two sub-60" quarters. In other words, their standards are too low. Once women start aiming for 1:50, then we'll see some breakthroughs at sub-1:55 consistently.
2> Based on the above, all races are "planned" around sub-2:00 pace for 800m and this is what all training is geared at.
celery wrote:
Relativity wrote:Why are the top 800m women so crap compared to the other elite women?
Top performances 2016:
100m: 10.7 vs 9.8 is 91.5%
200m: 21.78 vs 19.74 90.6%
800m: 1:57.02 vs 1:42.15 87.2%
1500m: 3:55.2 vs 3:29.3 89%
5000m: 14:12 vs 12:59 91.4%
10000m: 29:17 vs 26:51 91.7%
90% compared to 1:42.15 is 1:53.5.
Food for thought.
That is interesting. It appears that women's general disadvantage in athletic performance (when compared to men) is especially pronounced for the 800 M event. My first thought about why this might be the case is that the 800 is a sort of "crossroads" event that requires both sprint talent and distance talent. Since women generally have less athletic talent than men (in both sprint and distance) then their disadvantage is "doubled-up" in the 800. Another thought, this combined female disadvantage in the 800 may be why those individuals with abnormal "male" traits (hermaphrodite/hypogonad../etc.), tend to rise to world class level. In other words, the women's 800 is the easiest event for someone who is not "fully" female to avoid the disadvantage that female biology gives.
Both are possible theories.
Another would be that the current elite talent in the 800m on the women's side is just poor. Who actually is a stand out talent on the women's side? Nobody. They are all average. So when someone with an advantage like Semenya comes along, she is much better than the girls that should be running 1:55 at least.
Consider that Dibaba could surely run 1:55 with a 3:50 1500m and that the elite 1500m women routinely close out tactical races with 2:00 last 800s - Dibaba even as fast as 1:57 in the Olympic final.
There are two main reasons why people have become so politically correct in Canada. That includes the all white male distance runner fraternity (AWMDRF) on this forum.
Reason [1]: The need to raise their status and reputation in their community.
We all know that there is a long history of racism in Canada (and the United States). Most of which was committed by white males. Therefore the white males of today, being aware of this shameful past, have (very rightly) decided to move away from the type of thinking and actions of their ancestors.
But, unfortunately what has happened, is that they have overshot. They have gone to the other extreme. That being a society of politically correct individuals that don't want to point out anything out of fear of a decline in status and reputation. They are so afraid of being labelled as a racist or a bigot or a xenophobe, that they either stay silent about issues or they go bases loaded home run PC.
I can say with confidence that most of you are not racists, or bigots or xenophobes. So why be afraid that someone may call you that? If you know in your heart that you are not, then you should have no apprehension to fully speak your mind on controversial topics.
Reason [2]: Fear of the new laws and repercussions.
Thanks to Justin Trudeau and several others before him, Canada has become a place similar to Western Europe. Where freedom of speech and expression has actually become against the law. Yes this is true.
Growing up in Canada, I was always taught that free speech is in the bill of rights. But now these PC politicians are tearing apart the fabric of the nation by introducing legislation that can imprison someone who simply voices an opinion.
For example Justin Trudope supports the hijab. That head scarf is a symbol of the 7th century islamic oppression of women. It has no place in a civilized society like Canada, in the 21st century. But (sigh) if you say this, you get in trouble. I highly doubt this man would ever force his wife or his daughter to put that on their heads. But he is ok for other men to do so.
He forces Canadians to simply bow their heads to people who come into the country and disrespect established laws, rules and freedoms and impose their backward 7th century customs on this advanced, educated and excellent society.
Now you have a case of a group of individuals, namely Y chromosome hermaphrodites, who have busted into the sport of track and field. They have clearly violated the rules of fair play, and have had the IAAF overturn established rules related to hyperandrogenism.
. . . and the reaction by the PC community? The same. Bow your head and let the integrity of the sport be torn to pieces. Keep up the same PC behaviour in Canada and you will have sharia law in Ontario within a few years.
Here are some Non-PC YouTube Channels I recommend (you may learn something):
Pat Condell (immigration and politics):
https://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell/videos
Tommy Sotomayor (race relations):
https://www.youtube.com/user/tnnraw2/videos
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (religion):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqURZNQQksQdnQrpQhMZalg/videos
#NeverPC #NeverScared #NeverAWMDRF
lkjy wrote:
I think the issue is two-fold for women over 800m, and in my coaching experience (2:05 for 800m females in NCAA DI), here are some conclusions-
1> There is a mental barrier at 2:00.0.. women think that if they nail this barrier, they "have made it" and only work to run two sub-60" quarters. In other words, their standards are too low. Once women start aiming for 1:50, then we'll see some breakthroughs at sub-1:55 consistently.
2> Based on the above, all races are "planned" around sub-2:00 pace for 800m and this is what all training is geared at.
One thought that I had was that the 800m lies close to the boundary between aerobic and anaerobic. Because the women are running for around 15 seconds longer than men they are relying more on their aerobic energy systems than the top men. This could account for the greater than expected slow-down.
It would be interesting to have the top male runners in the World race for 1:57 to get the max distance that they could run in that time. Perhaps the difference in distance would more closely align to the time differences between men and women in other events.
To the guy who keeps asking about Semenya's genitalia, both XX and XY fetuses start out with female-looking genitals. At a certain stage in development, the penis/testicles develop in the male fetus. In a small percentage of fetuses, this development is incomplete and, even though they are XY, and present as male in almost every other way, their genitals appear either as female or somewhere in between male and female. This is the case with Semenya.
For the purposes of sporting competition, Semenya should not be considered a female.
Interesting remarks "Relativity" about the women's 800 being weak right now. So it looks like the real talent in women's mid-D is going into the 1500. Similar to the claims that the 10,000 talent on the men's side is getting pulled to the Marathon.
On a related topic. What is the evidence that the 2nd and 3rd in the Oly w800 are also hermaph/hypogono/whatever. I've heard many make that assertion, but have not seen the same evidence in articles (as is the case with CS).
Barabbas wrote:
We all know how Melisssa Bishop and the rest of the women's 800 field got robbed in Rio. It's not the medalists' fault, but come on. That race was a travesty. I challenge LRC to take a stand to ignore the medalists in that race and rank MB #1 for the year. T&FN isn't going to do it. There is nothing to lose here. No one outside of the LRC community is going to give a damn about the LRC rankings anyway (no disrespect intended). I would guess that most folks here consider MB the #1 female at 800 anyway, so why not make it official? This gesture would be a small vindication for her and the other four women in that race. I know this sounds insensitive, but I believe it is how many of us who care about fair competition feel.
Sounds like you don't give a da## about Castor Semenya, also a human being. Hard to appreciate one's own uniqueness when one doesn't appreciate other people's uniqueness.
Compassion continuum requires both.
Not everyone is politically correct in Canada
celery wrote:
Interesting remarks "Relativity" about the women's 800 being weak right now. So it looks like the real talent in women's mid-D is going into the 1500. Similar to the claims that the 10,000 talent on the men's side is getting pulled to the Marathon.
On a related topic. What is the evidence that the 2nd and 3rd in the Oly w800 are also hermaph/hypogono/whatever. I've heard many make that assertion, but have not seen the same evidence in articles (as is the case with CS).
Wambui and Niyonsaba were both on the same testosterone blockers as Semenya and, while they were on these medications, they were complete non-factors on the World scene. Soon after CAS came out with their idiotic decision stating that the IAAF couldn't force athletes wishing to compete in the women's division to take medication, their times improved by leaps and bounds and they started dominating the competition (with the exception of Semenya).
Also, go and search for some images of Wambui in particular. "She" looks even more masculine than Semenya. Niyonsaba at least looks somewhat female.
I'll admit that their exact situation is more speculative than Semenya (whose medical details were leaked) at this point.
Bishop is training as hard as can for all any of us know, and ran as hard as could in Rio, it's like competing vs drugged up runnners, so she was the cleanest runner there if you want to say the other runners were "female" and she's still the winner
Fact is she's the best female 800m runner in the world end of story
Relativity wrote:
Both are possible theories.
Another would be that the current elite talent in the 800m on the women's side is just poor. Who actually is a stand out talent on the women's side? Nobody. They are all average. So when someone with an advantage like Semenya comes along, she is much better than the girls that should be running 1:55 at least.
Consider that Dibaba could surely run 1:55 with a 3:50 1500m and that the elite 1500m women routinely close out tactical races with 2:00 last 800s - Dibaba even as fast as 1:57 in the Olympic final.
I'm usually the last to wantonly accuse doping--I've argued in threads defending Mo, DeGrasse, Bolt, Willis, and plenty of others. I fully believe, however, that nobody other than Jelimo has ever run sub-1:55 clean. Here's the list of all sub-1:55 performers other than Jelimo--form your own opinions, but note the time period and the countries these athletes were competing for.
1 1:53.28 Jarmila KratochvÃlová CZE 26.01.51 1 München 26.07.1983
2 1:53.43 Nadezhda Olizarenko UKR 28.11.53 1 Moskva 27.07.1980
4 1:54.44 Ana Fidelia Quirot CUB 23.03.63 1 Barcelona 09.09.1989
5 1:54.68 Jarmila KratochvÃlová CZE 26.01.51 1 Helsinki 09.08.1983
6 1:54.81 Olga Mineyeva RUS 01.09.52 2 Moskva 27.07.1980
7 1:54.82 Ana Fidelia Quirot CUB 23.03.63 1 Köln 24.08.1997
8 1:54.85 Nadezhda Olizarenko UKR 28.11.53 1rA Moskva 12.06.1980
10 1:54.94 Tatyana Kazankina RUS 17.12.51 1 Montréal 26.07.1976
If you look through the women's all-time list for yourself (search women's 800m all-time) you'll probably end up with the distinct impression that only Semenya, Jelimo, and perhaps Mutola have run under 1:56 clean. The vast majority of sub-1:56 athletes were from the USSR, Soviet satellite nations ('80s Cuba, Mozambique, various eastern European nations), East Germany, etc.
Many elite 1500m/5k runners don't have a major differential between what they can run for their final 800m of a slower race and what they can run in the open 8. I'd assume the 800m specialist with a 1:58 PR would match up very well over 800m against the 1500m/3k/5k athlete who could close a tactical 1500 in 1:59.5.
Dibaba's an exception and could probably break any women's distance record from 5k down (in fact...hasn't she already got most of them by now?) including the Chinese records of the 1990s.
Also for reference, 1:55.99 is a top 60 all time women's 800 performance. Top 60 men's 800 is 1:42.77. Top 60 men's 1500m is 3:29.30. Top 60 women's 1500m is 3:57.13. Comparing 800m as a percentage of the men's world record as done in an earlier post doesn't say that the women's 800 is weak, just that the physiological differences between men and women are more pronounced in the 800 than other events.
Why don't you learn from the elites? She got out-kicked. She didn't even medal. She placed 4th. I guarantee if there were Russians ahead of her you would be calling them doped.
From Melissa Bishop's mouth herself, “Me missing the podium is because I didn’t run fast enough, not because of who was in the race."