For High School Coaches - At What Distances and How Often Do You Let Your Athletes Double??

I am not sure where you are coming from, but I disagree with just about everything you said. Do you think there is a reason that most college kids don't double every meet? Do you think there is a reason that world class runners don't double at any or very few of their meets. It's because those coaches don't have to worry about getting team points (most college meets are not scored anymore, at least in Division I). If you take away the pressure of trying to get team points and beat your cross town rival or whatever, pretty much any coach in the country does not double or triple their athletes on a regular basis. In college the trend is not only to not double at twice weekly meets, but most college coaches don't even race their athletes every week. No matter how you approach a race, it is still different than a workout and doing too many of them is just simply not a smart move. If you count the number of meets most high schools race and then have an athlete double or triple in every meet, that is a lot of races before you even get to the conference or state meets. What is the purpose? Oh yeah, we can say our dual meet record is 48 straight or something like that. Please coaches, look at what the coaches of the top college teams and of the world class runners do. If they think 20-30 year old men shouldn't be racing every week and two or three races every meet, why should a 14 year old girl. It just doesn't make sense. Also, at the world class level, it is usually the athletes that are not trying to make money by road racing every week that have the better and longer careers, simply because they didn't overrace. Athletes like Bob Kennedy was against road racing for this very reason, so he didn't over race. Again, why would you want a young girl or boy to do what a man doesn't think he should do.

Man, you guys are softies. Where exactly did you run?

I quadrupled every important meet (4X800, 1600, 800, 3200) my junior and senior year, including state. I was tripling as a freshman and sophomore (4X8, 16, 32). If your team needs you, do it.

Dual meets and little piss meets are another story.

And oh yeah. I didn't burn out. Ran division I at a top 20 program. I think if you aren't a puss, do what you coach and team ask of you. It's called sacrificing individual glory (ie - prs, recrods) for the good of the team.

Travel Agent wrote:

Man, you guys are softies. Where exactly did you run?

I quadrupled every important meet (4X800, 1600, 800, 3200) my junior and senior year, including state. I was tripling as a freshman and sophomore (4X8, 16, 32). If your team needs you, do it.

Dual meets and little piss meets are another story.

And oh yeah. I didn't burn out. Ran division I at a top 20 program. I think if you aren't a puss, do what you coach and team ask of you. It's called sacrificing individual glory (ie - prs, recrods) for the good of the team.

You just agreed with what I was saying by saying the dual meets and little piss meets are another story. Absolutely in the bigger meets the better distance athletes should double, or even triple. The point is doing the 1600 and 3200 at every single meet, including the little dual meets. That is not necessary and would probably prevent that athlete from doing as well in the bigger meets that are really the ones that should matter. Why have an athlete over raced by conference time for the "glory" of winning a dual meet.

(+) wrote

"Also, if the athlete does not double or triple during the season when you're competing at a lower intensity, how would they be prepared for the higher intensity competition during the state championships?"

It is called peaking, both physically and mentally. At a bigger meet you should be more rested (if the coach knows what he is doing) and you are also going to be more mentally ready than during all of these little meets.

I agree. Double, triple, maybe even quadruple up at big meets like sectionals or state meet, maybe even a county-type meet. However, at your run of the mill weekend meets that don't really mean anything, I just don't see the point. Honestly, those kind of meets realy don't mean anything. No point in running your kids down just to be a points-monger in some crap meet.

Lots of coaches run duel meets as workouts for there top kids. Which is harder for a 5:10, 2:20 girl:

win the 1600m in 5:30

30 min. later win the 800m in 2:29

30 min. later run a leg of the 4x400 in 62

or

8x400m with 200m jog at 77-78.

I coached a sub 9 min. 2 miler and on his interval days he would do 5x1000m with 3:30 to 4 min. rest avg. low 2:50's. In duel meets he would sometimes do the 4x800m running a 2:05, 1600m winning in 4:40, the 800m in 2:05 and maybe the 4x400m in 54-55 and have fun doing it. He would rather the duel meet over the interval 1000's anyday.

Also, just because someone coaches college does not mean they are a great coach. At most schools you make more teaching high school and coaching then you would coaching college.

If you tryed to coach your high school team like some college teams racing every 2 to 3 weeks running lots of miles, you would not have a high school team. All the kid would play lacrosse!

I think doubling, tripling, (hey even quadrupling) in dual meets can be one way to deal with states and conferences that require weekly dual meets and teams that are stronger than the rest of the conference especially in distance events. I agree that racing twice a week is too much for high school kids so I don't ask our kids to do it--if I think we'll need to race a dual meet we don't compete that weekend. In XC our top 5-6 girls run our dual meets as tempo runs and we pack it in (depending on our weekend plans our JV and 6-7 may or may not race the meet which will usually put them with our top 5 who are tempoing---we've gone 1-12 on a few opponents that way). In track we get a little more creative our dual meets are our track workouts for the week (we can then devote two training days in the week to tempo work and hill work--if we don't race that weekend (we do about 4 invys a season so many we don't) then we'll do some pacework (not speedwork) in place of the meet). Additionally we don't let our freshmen and younger girls run speedwork so many of them really enjoy playing with some speed on the mile relay.

Perhaps this is what your daughters coach is trying to accomplish (although it sounds like your daughter isn't listening to the coach). It's fine to have and express your own opinions and philosophies I think the variation in what works for different kids is quite wide. I individualize workouts and goals for all of our kids based on where they are and where they want to go. I'm willing to listen to concerns and questions but ultimately once we negotiate a plan then if the athlete doesn't follow through with the plan I do find it frustrating for me and counter productive to them. So go ahead and talk to your daughter's coach (or even better have her talk to him/her--I don't mind talking to parents but if we're coming up with a training plan then I find it critical that the one who is going to do the training be involved in the discussion) but if they can't reach an agreement that she will try her best to follow through with then she's risking injury not by doubling in dual meets but because she's deviating from the agreed plan. Best of luck.

Burn out coming wrote:

(+) wrote

"Also, if the athlete does not double or triple during the season when you're competing at a lower intensity, how would they be prepared for the higher intensity competition during the state championships?"

It is called peaking, both physically and mentally. At a bigger meet you should be more rested (if the coach knows what he is doing) and you are also going to be more mentally ready than during all of these little meets.

You're taking it out of context. The question was: "What are the expert opinions on this? If it's not smart to do it week in and week out, is it ok to do it once a season, say at a State Championship?"

Even you say it's OK to do doubles and triples during the season. Peaking or not, expecting to be distance competitive (1600/3200) at State without having run any doubles during season is questionable. It depends on the athlete and I hope the parent knows the athlete well enough to judge.

You missed most of my points. First of all, I never implied that college coaches were all great coaches. That couldn't be further from the truth. I was specifically refering to some of the great coaches in college and of post collegiate runners out there that most of us agree are great coaches. In fact, it is the college coaches that do run their athletes in two or three races a meet, that aren't very successful and have athletes that aren't improving.

You also are using examples of athletes that are clearly better than their competition, which is completely different than this freshmen girl is in. She is supposedly pretty good, but is not so dominant that she can run easy and still win. She has to run extremely hard in the 3200 just to be competitive. That is the big difference in what is being discussed. An okay freshmen girl cannot and should not be compared to a sub 9 minute boy or a 5:10, 2:20 girl. You need to stick to the topic of what this parent was asking. In time, she may become that 5:10, 2:20 girl that can run easily and still win races. That is not what she is doing however.

Lastly, I never said the high school kids should do what the college kids are doing and only race every two or three weeks. I was using that as an example of what the top runners, both collegiately and post collegiately are doing. No high school coach is going to let his or her athletes sit out over half of their meets. However, they don't need to double them or triple them every meet just to score points. Save them for the big meets or if they are indeed so much better than the competition, let them run to win.

Thanks. And thanks to everyone for their thoughtful insight. And no, I'm not from Saratoga. Although I love that place in August.

You guys pushing the doubles are shortsighted and i'm glad that i get to coach aganst people like you.

Also, Pre only did the mile/2 mile double 6 times in his HS career.

First of all I doubt the Toga girls have ever doubled 1600 & 3200 (if only because NY runs 1500 and 3000). I also wouldn't call them a weak team (I think they just scored 54 points at indoor nationals). It also seems that all the triples and quads by the Toga girls are workouts and probably intended as such. None of them tripled at their state meet (and I'm sorry but running one of the first events and one of the last events of a 7 hour meet really should not be too taxing for them).

the only time i doubled in HS, and in college was for training. i used the second race more of a semi hard training run. i mean would try and run well, but its not the same as a fresh race.

To concerned parent: I think you received a lot of good information from a lot of different sources and as you can see, there are many different opinions out there. So much of training and racing is opinion, although hopefully based on some science as well. If someone raced a lot in high school and didn't burn out, they will think that it is okay to race the 1600 and 3200 every meet. If someone burned out from doing that, they will think it is not okay. As much as we all want to trust the exercise science field to show us exactly how to race and train, there is just too much variation amongst individuals for that to happen. That is why you see so much arguing on these boards about how to train. Some people respond to high mileage, some to lower, some to lots of intervals, some to lots of tempo running. If a coach or athlete has had good luck with a certain way, that is what he is rightfully going to believe in.

The bottom line is that you should try to watch your daughter very closely and see how she is responding to all of these races. If she is completely wiped out the next day, she should probably not be racing both races every meet and her long term career will probably suffer. As she gets older, has more experience and more miles behind her, she may handle the double just fine.

Good luck to you and your daughter.

In highschool I did a 1600 3200 4x800 triple pretty much every big meet, not duel meets, but all invites.