What ELSE does Centrowitz need to do to be considered the best American Miler ever?

Two scenarios, would make conversation over and Centro as hands down better than Webb, Maree, Scott, Ryun, and Lagat.

1, sub 03:47 in the mile would do it, hands down. If he gets American record then obv, but even if he doesnt quite surpass or even catch Webb's American record but comes within a tenth of a second, then he's undisputed best US miler ever IMO.

2, Also, an outdoor world's title to go with indoor and olympic titles he already has, a sub 03:48 outdoor mile, and breaking Lagat's indoor US record would sew up the conversation pretty handily in my book. I wouldnt see any room for argument there - a Webb time trial in Belgium certainly wouldnt be.

Either of those and debate is over.

This is all supposing you don't consider him it already...and it'd be fair to consider him it already - 2016 Olympic gold, (rightful 2012 Olympic bronze :: cough :: Mak), Indoor world gold, Outdoor world bronze, multiple national indoor and outdoor national titles, prestigious race wins, NCAA race wins, high school 04:00 flat...I already think Centro might be best.

I won't hesitate to call him GOAT American if he has one dominant season in which he wins a lot of diamond league races.

Already I am leaning towards it after many years of his being a medal favorite, being stunningly consistent, and running with flawless tactics in the tactical wasteland that is the USA, created by the likes of Andrew Wheating.

He took it to another level on Saturday, not just positioning himself perfectly, but forcing every challenger to run wide on the last few turns. Super impressive.

notrump wrote:

The race was slower than the winning time in 1948, and for that reason the medal loses some of its luster.

For the rest of his life when he is introduced as Olympic Gold medalist or Olympic champion no one will ask what his time was. He ran a tactically perfect race and still had to close in 50.0, which is not slow even in a slow race.

I tend to agree that he needs an AR in either the 1500m or Mile to be considered the american GOAT, but I don't think we can hold against him his WINNING time in the Olympics. If there had been a big fall that took out half the field or if all the big names had been eliminated in the rounds then maybe it loses some luster, but as it is he won in a fair, but tactical chapionship race against the best in the world

MMA Fan wrote:

This is all supposing you don't consider him it already...and it'd be fair to consider him it already - 2016 Olympic gold, (rightful 2012 Olympic bronze :: cough :: Mak), Indoor world gold, Outdoor world bronze, multiple national indoor and outdoor national titles, prestigious race wins, NCAA race wins, high school 04:00 flat...I already think Centro might be best.

The best part of this pile of accomplishments is that he is actually even better ... you are leaving out the 2013 WC silver.

Sourced wrote:

I will admit that I'm a fan of Centro. That said,

He does not need anything else. He is the GOAT miler (1500er, whatever) in US history. He is third fastest US 1500 man ever (behind two men not born or raised in the US).

Once he runs under 3:30 later this year (and presumably breaks the AR), there will be no argument against him. People who say Jim Ryun is better because he had the WR are delusional.

Hilarious. YOU are delusional.

Centro doesn't have the American mile record. He doesn't have the American 1500m record. And he doesn't have any world #1 rankings.

You CANNOT be the greatest miler / 1500 meter runner in American history without, at the very least, setting American records in those events. Nor can you do so when your highest world ranking is 5. His world rankings by the way are 8 (2011), 5 (2012), 8 (2013), and 10 (2015),

Jim set two long standing world records and was ranked #1 in the world on two occasions. His world rankings were 4 (1965), 1 (1966), 1 (1967), 2 (1968), 7 (1969), 6 (1971), and 9 (1972).

Jim was four times ranked better than Centro's best ever ranking. Jim broke the American 1500m record 3 times. He broke the American mile record four times. He broke the world 1500m record once. And he broke the world mile record twice.

Top 4 greatest American milers of all time:

1. Jim Ryun

2. Glenn Cunningham (4th & 2nd at Olympics, mile world record)

3. Steve Scott (WC silver, world ranked 9 (1977), 7 (1978), 3 (1979), 4 (1980), 4 (1981), 2 (1982), 2 (1983), 8 (1984), 7 (1985), 3 (1986), 6 (1988), long standing American mile record, 2nd fastest mile ever)

4. Bernard Lagat (WC gold & bronze, world ranked 2 (2005), 3 (2006), 2 (2007), 7 (2009), long (still) standing American 1500m record)

At the moment, Centro is no higher than #5. If he breaks the American mile and 1500m records and receives a world ranking of 2, he will be #3 on the above list.

Ryun ran 1:44, 3:33, and 3:51 (twice) in crappy shoes on dirt tracks half a century ago, when training methods and diet were more primitive than they are today. All were world records. He did it without rabbits and without performance-enhancing drugs. (Epogen wouldn't come into existence for another 20 years.) Ryun was the #1 ranked 1500 meter runner in the world in 1966 and 1967 and the #1 800 meter runner in the world in 1966. He was Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year (top ranked athlete in all of track and field) in both 1966 and 1967.

How many WRs does Centrowitz have? Zero What is his best mile time? What is his best 800 meter time? How many times has he ranked #1 in the world in the 1500 meters? How many times has he won Track & Field News' Athlete of the Year award?

Jim Ryun at his best was by far the greatest middle distance runner on the planet.

Matt Centrowitz at his best would be unable to win most Diamond League meets.

There is simply no comparison.

MMA Fan wrote:

This is all supposing you don't consider him it already...and it'd be fair to consider him it already - 2016 Olympic gold, (rightful 2012 Olympic bronze :: cough :: Mak), Indoor world gold, Outdoor world bronze, multiple national indoor and outdoor national titles, prestigious race wins, NCAA race wins, high school 04:00 flat...I already think Centro might be best.

If he retired today he would certainly be in the discussion for all the reasons mentioned above, with the biggest thing on his resume obviously the Olympic Gold. We aren't having this discussion if he doesn't win the Gold, although he is still probably in the discussion with an Olympic Silver. However, I'm wondering what he needs to do to take away the argument. You mentioned a few things he could do and they all had to do with times, while most everything in his resume has to do with wins in big races.

Alan Webb ran some great times, but didn't win much especially at the Olympic/World champs level.

Sourced wrote:

I will admit that I'm a fan of Centro. That said,

He does not need anything else. He is the GOAT miler (1500er, whatever) in US history. He is third fastest US 1500 man ever (behind two men not born or raised in the US).

Once he runs under 3:30 later this year (and presumably breaks the AR), there will be no argument against him. People who say Jim Ryun is better because he had the WR are delusional.

People say Ryun is better because for about 3 years he was a lock to win any mile race he entered. From the time he set the world record to the time he lost in Mexico City (think about a sea level born runner winning a medal at altitude), he destroyed fields like an El G in his prime. He was clearly the best in the world.

Centro rarely(ever?) wins diamond league meets (meets that tend to have more of the best runners in the world than the olympics). You can never take away from him being the best on a given day but it isn't remotely the same as being dominant. Now you can argue that the competition is a lot,lot tougher now Guys like Snell, Burleson, Elliot and who knows who else would have been running in Mexico City instead of retired and of course the hoard of east africans had started.

You can make good arguments for Centro. Want to make it a no arguement: set a WR, win a dozen diamond league events, add a couple more outdoor medals,...

Addendum to previous post: I'd put Sydney Maree at #5 greatest American miler / 1500m runner. He had world rankings of 5 (1981), 3 (1982), 7 (1983), 3 (1985), and 8 (1986). Also briefly held the 1500m world record. Centro at #6.

Cheaters belong nowhere on a list of GOATs. What a joke.

No one likes it when this argument is made, but Lagat's 2004 silver in the 1500m and the 3:27.40 he ran that year were both done when he was an American (not Kenyan) citizen.

Obviously setting a WR would take the discussion out of it, but that WR may not be attainable by anyone including Kiprop. Ryun will always be an immortal because of what he accomplished, but moreso because of WHEN he accomplished it and If Ryun had won Olympic Gold it might be impossible for any American to ever take the title from him even with faster times, but he did not win Gold :(

arandomwalk wrote:

I think a combination of championship wins as well as times are needed. With the olympic gold, WC bronze, and pretty consistent wins at USAs, there's a good argument for him being one of the best championship american milers.

However, and I know there has been a lot of discussion with this, the olympic final was such a bizarre race that it is difficult for me to say that Centro's gold is more impressive than, say, Lagat's silver in Athens. I think the fact that centro will likely get his ass kicked in any upcoming diamond league meets he enters supports this.

To me, what he'd have to do is win at least one more championship medal as well as break or come close to breaking the american record in the mile, 1500 or both in order to cement him as the best american miler ever.

Yo. Here's why The Olympic Gold Trumps All.

You gotta win it one the day. Once every 4 years. Taken on all comers and defeat whatever they throw at you, and whatever they bring.

An Olympic Gold is forever.

This is why Coe said to him as he gave him his gold medal "Welcome to the Club."

It's legendary.

EOS.

captainwildcat wrote:

Let's assume that even with an Olympic Gold Medal he is not the best american miler ever. What would he have to do for the vast majority of running fans to give him the title of GOAT american? American Record in mile or 1500m? both? A second Olympic medal? Another world championship medal? A few diamod league wins? #1 world ranking? Something else? All of the above?

People who could arguably still be ahead of him in no particular order: Jim Ryun, Steve Scott, Alan Webb, Bernard Lagat, anyone else?. I'm not sayng they are ahead of him just that there could be an argument for each of them and if none of them are ahead of him is he already the best ever American miler?

Tell me again, why do we care?

smile wrote:

1. Jim Ryun

2. Glenn Cunningham (4th & 2nd at Olympics, mile world record)

3. Steve Scott (WC silver, world ranked 9 (1977), 7 (1978), 3 (1979), 4 (1980), 4 (1981), 2 (1982), 2 (1983), 8 (1984), 7 (1985), 3 (1986), 6 (1988), long standing American mile record, 2nd fastest mile ever)

4. Bernard Lagat (WC gold & bronze, world ranked 2 (2005), 3 (2006), 2 (2007), 7 (2009), long (still) standing American 1500m record)

At the moment, Centro is no higher than #5. If he breaks the American mile and 1500m records and receives a world ranking of 2, he will be #3 on the above list.

I get the argument for Ryun, Scott, and Lagat, but Cunningham? Yes he held the world record, but in a time that is regularly bettered by High school boys now, so clearly his times don't hold up and his championship record is not any better than Centro's (4th and 1st in Olympics for Centro, vs 4th and 2nd for Cunningham). As a historical figure in Track and Field Cunningham is important, but can't be still considered one of the greatest.

It'll be hard for him to get the AR in the mile it's not contested nearly as Much. He would have to pull an Alan Webb, but to me that didn't give Webb as much credit than if he would have run the AR in the 1500 in a heavily contested race like a Monaco.

I think centro needs to run an AR in the 1500 that will put a stamp on it making him the greatest US miler of all time... Unlike Webb, I see centro having success in the 5k, tactical ones. I doubt he'll crack 13

tell me again wrote:

Tell me again, why do we care?

Because this is a running message board. Basketball fans debate all the time about the greatest ever (MJ or LeBron or Kobe etc.) or best center ever (Wilt or Kareem or Shaq or Russell etc.). Baseball fans debate Ruth vs. Aaron vs. Bonds. We are runners and running fans so why not debate this.

Jim Ryun ran and set world records when his competition (and running as a whole) was garbage. Guys on Letsrun complain all the time about how Farah only looks good because no one decent is running in the 5K/10K. Rewind 50 years into Ryun's era, and you have a pitiful depth of competition with a bunch of guys doing their best to train while working full-time jobs.

Seriously. I don't understand what's wrong with some of you people. Are you somehow NOT aware that Ryun's era was pitifully weak thanks to the fact that very few promising athletes could actually maintain an amateur athletic career? Ryun being ranked #1 in world and setting a world record in the 1960s is effectively the same as being the world's greatest track cyclist or triathlete today.