Western State vs Stanford etc

They could of gone to Chili Pepper instead.

INTHEKNOW wrote:

"KL" you are stupid. Do you really believe that a school can pick and choose what division each sport is in. The school has to decide what division they are in based on the ENTIRE sports program. And please, don't compare cross country times from two different courses at two different altitudes. Finally, you said they need to prove how good they are at a "real" meet. Well, they tried that too. The problem is when they tried to go to the Roy Griak meet, the meet director wouldn't let them in.

man kl, that's just plain ignorance. in the past few years, western would be in the trophy hunt at d-1 nationals. they can compete with any program in the country. they aren't the best, but they're pretty close. comparing cross country times is even more ridiculous. look for those same guys at mt. sac and stanford the next few weeks and let me know how fast they run. and kenyan NAMES impress you? i guess being kenyan makes you fast. or maybe training your ass off at 7000+ feet makes you fast... hmmm

KL wrote:

Honestly I don't think Western State would have made D1 nats. I don't think they would have been close....And yes as I said before most D1 schools easily have 5 guys under 26 (as the post before me said.....most D1 schools have 6-7 guys under 26....and the very top schools who go to nationals are deeper than that).....Western State is good....but they are no where as good as most people believe that are posting on this thread. D1 is a different world than D2.....and there is no proof other than a junk meet that supports your point at all. Maybe if you started dropping Kenyan names that western state has I would be more inclined to agree with you, but you don't even have that. Western State would be a good team in D1, a dyanasty in D2.

this was suppose to be about the top teams in d1, not all the other ones. one reason the couldn't compete with good d1 teams is they don't have a haas. look at it, torres was almost a full minute ahead of western's first guy, at a big meet like nat's this would cost them greatly. and just for the record i think stanford had 6-7 guys at 24:00 or under @ their regional meet.

The ignorence seems to be coming from Western State supporters. Just because you win DII doesn't mean anything. How about this for example since it is March Madness. Do you think the best DII basketball team could make the tournament? Love to hear the answer to this. I would imagine the best team in DII could compete with the lower DI schools. Now think about this: IT IS HARDER FOR A TEAM TO MAKE THE XC NATIONALS THAN THE NCAA BASKETBALL TOURNAMENT!!!!!!!! Thats a fact. In XC winning your conference means nothing. You have to be at the top of your region. Therefore terrible schools like Texas Southern that can get in in basketball can't get into the XC Nationals because its to hard. Western State couldn't even get in Griak!!!!! You think they would get a bid to nationals???? Seems like they are just a good team for the DI schools to run tempos against. Tell me why on earth a DI team would try against WS in basically a duel meet....they don't. Seems like all the Western State supporters are just upset about getting rejected from real running schools in the DI. Keep dreaming

I am a D2 runner, and I may be biased, but I believe you are WAY wrong in saying that western couldn't make the national championships...first of all, you say Stanford had 7 guys at or under 24 minutes at their regional meet....I woulnd't count on that considering they ran a 10k. Secondly, if you are refering to their times on the 8k course there, that course was blazing fast, I ran mid 24's there and Pr'd by like 2 minutes that day, so your not prving much...also, I placed well at D2 nationals, but Western had all 7 of their guys in front of me, and I had the race of my life there, so that would mean, at worst, those guys would have been all under 24:30 range at Stanford...so, if they ran that, which is pretty darn close to what you "say" stanford ran, then I would almost guarentee they'd make nationals considering Stanford WON...

if that didn't make sense, then oh well, because the facts are there, western would at least be a comptetitive D1 program...and no, I'm not some Western Supporter, I'd venture to say I should be Anti-western considering they crushed my team at nationals

Western's top 6 5k times.

13:48

13:55

13:58

14:06

14:13

14:20

Seems like decent D1 times to me. I know that Western could beat a lot of these teams. I would like to see the top 5 of each of these teams 5k track times. Someone have a lot of time??

1. 47 STANFORD (29:50.9 149:14.4)

==========================================================

1 3 Grant Robison 624 29:36.7

2 5 Louis Luchini 622 29:41.0

3 6 Donald Sage 626 29:44.4

4 8 Ian Dobson 617 29:47.2

5 25 Adam Tenforde 628 30:25.2

6 ( 33) Ryan Hall 619 30:31.0

7 ( 77) Peter Meindl 623 31:07.4

2. 107 WISCONSIN (30:16.8 151:23.9)

==========================================================

1 11 Matt Tegenkamp 858 29:49.1

2 19 Isaiah Festa 851 30:18.9

3 21 Bobby Lockhart 855 30:20.7

4 22 Adam Wallace 859 30:21.3

5 34 Simon Bairu 848 30:34.0

6 ( 89) Tim Keller 854 31:15.5

7 (127) Colin Steele 857 31:42.9

3. 165 EASTERN MICHIGAN (30:23.6 151:58.0)

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1 7 Boaz Cheboiywo 202 29:46.1

2 12 Gavin Thompson 212 29:51.4

3 36 Joel David 205 30:36.3

4 42 Jordan Desilets 207 30:40.5

5 68 Steve Crane 204 31:03.8

6 (137) Paul Pobursky 209 31:52.4

7 (162) Feder Estelus 208 32:09.0

4. 190 COLORADO (30:19.4 151:36.6)

==========================================================

1 1 Jorge Torres 156 29:04.7

2 9 Edwardo Torres 155 29:47.7

3 38 Bill Nelson 148 30:37.1

4 52 Steve Slattery 154 30:50.7

5 90 Jon Severy 153 31:16.5

6 (152) Payton Batliner 143 32:02.3

7 (170) Bret Schoolmeester 151 32:22.8

5. 210 OREGON (30:39.1 153:15.1)

==========================================================

1 18 Jason Hartmann 534 30:17.9

2 30 Ryan Andrus 532 30:30.0

3 37 Eric Logsdon 536 30:36.5

4 39 Brett Holts 535 30:37.8

5 86 John Lucas 537 31:13.0

6 (125) Noel Paulson 539 31:42.0

7 (175) Shane Ahlers 531 32:28.2

6. 214 ARKANSAS (30:24.9 152:04.4)

==========================================================

1 2 Alistair Cragg 43 29:06.0

2 13 Daniel Lincoln 45 29:59.3

3 27 Jason Sandfort 48 30:29.1

4 60 Silverus Kimeli 44 30:57.6

5 112 Chris Mulvaney 46 31:32.5

6 (166) Westley Alkin 41 32:17.7

7 (198) Luis Bordes 42 33:11.5

7. 247 NORTHERN ARIZONA (30:47.8 153:58.9)

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1 16 Seth Watkins 476 30:16.2

2 45 Nurani Sheikh 474 30:42.9

3 54 Andy Weilacher 477 30:54.7

4 65 Travis Laird 471 31:01.6

5 67 Henrick Ahnstrom 466 31:03.5

6 ( 94) Tyler Williams 478 31:18.7

7 (212) Charlie Koeppen 470 34:29.9

8. 309 MICHIGAN (30:54.0 154:29.9)

==========================================================

1 20 Nate Brannen 332 30:20.4

2 24 Nick Willis 340 30:24.7

3 80 Thomas Greenless 333 31:08.6

4 92 Nic Stanko 338 31:18.1

5 93 Sean Moore 336 31:18.2

6 (148) Ryan Hesselink 334 31:59.1

7 (197) Brian Turner 339 33:07.5

9. 337 CENTRAL MICHIGAN (30:59.1 154:55.1)

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1 31 Tristen Perlberg 118 30:30.4

2 35 Jake Flynn 112 30:35.1

3 56 Luke Humphrey 114 30:55.6

4 98 Dave Ernsberger 111 31:19.8

5 117 Jeff Davis 110 31:34.3

6 (131) Don Wilkins 124 31:46.7

7 (173) Pete Remein 120 32:27.0

10. 376 IONA (31:01.4 155:07.0)

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1 14 Richard Kiplagat 277 30:00.4

2 62 Joe McAlister 280 30:59.2

3 82 Mark Smyth 284 31:09.9

4 103 Graeme Reid 282 31:24.2

5 115 Peter Riley 283 31:33.4

6 (116) Brendan Doyle 275 31:34.1

7 (160) Nigel Wray 288 32:05.3

11. 392 MONTANA STATE (31:06.2 155:30.9)

==========================================================

1 17 Lyle Weese 410 30:16.5

2 43 Casey Jermyn 406 30:41.2

3 70 Kevin Murphy 408 31:04.2

4 104 Jonathan Gibson 403 31:24.3

5 158 Kevin Clary 402 32:04.7

6 (184) Jeremy Wolf 412 32:42.0

7 (207) Matthew Holcom 405 33:47.1

12. 398 VILLANOVA (31:07.2 155:36.0)

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1 32 Adrian Blincoe 729 30:30.7

2 46 Jonathan Fasulo 733 30:43.8

3 97 Ryan Hayden 734 31:19.5

4 99 Patrick Dunn 732 31:20.8

5 124 Marc Pelerin 738 31:41.3

6 (128) Thomas Parlapiano 737 31:44.4

7 (183) Jason Jabaut 735 32:41.7

13. 406 PROVIDENCE (31:09.1 155:45.5)

==========================================================

1 23 Adam Sutton 578 30:22.6

2 55 Tyler McCahe 573 30:54.8

3 84 Dylan Wykes 579 31:11.2

4 121 Pat Moulton 575 31:36.7

5 123 Pat Guidera 572 31:40.3

6 (199) Joe Dionne 569 33:13.0

7 (204) Martin Fagan 570 33:26.7

14. 407 WILLIAM AND MARY (31:10.2 155:51.0)

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1 26 Ed Moran 821 30:27.5

2 63 John O'Connor 822 30:59.5

3 87 Matt Keally 817 31:13.5

4 96 Jacob Frey 812 31:19.1

5 135 Charlie Hurt 816 31:51.5

6 (140) Adam Otstot 823 31:53.0

7 (146) West Garrett 814 31:58.2

15. 436 WEBER STATE (31:13.3 156:06.2)

==========================================================

1 47 Jeremy Tolman 795 30:44.7

2 72 Joel Atwater 788 31:05.0

3 101 Nathan Long 791 31:21.9

4 102 Ken Richardson 793 31:22.0

5 114 Corbin Talley 794 31:32.6

6 (154) Trent Hooper 790 32:03.3

7 (164) Riley Cook 789 32:11.5

16. 443 BRIGHAM YOUNG (31:15.9 156:19.3)

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1 29 Kip Kangogo 89 30:29.4

2 53 Lewis Jones 88 30:53.4

3 105 Andy Carman 86 31:26.4

4 122 Chad Durham 87 31:39.2

5 134 Steve Barrus 85 31:50.9

6 (176) Matt Adams 84 32:30.7

7 (177) Nathan Robison 92 32:31.6

17. 449 MINNESOTA (31:16.0 156:19.7)

==========================================================

1 28 Andrew Carlson 370 30:29.2

2 57 Ryan Malmin 379 30:56.0

3 88 Will McComb 380 31:14.5

4 120 Andrew McKessock 381 31:36.2

5 156 Michael Bialick 369 32:03.9

6 (171) Toby Henkels 378 32:23.6

18. 458 GEORGETOWN (31:19.4 156:36.7)

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1 40 Mike Smith 250 30:39.5

2 76 Rod Koborsi 244 31:07.1

3 83 James Hower 242 31:10.5

4 85 Javon Broderick 240 31:11.8

5 174 Chris Lukezic 245 32:27.8

6 (190) Dylan Welsh 252 32:54.8

7 (211) Dan Tebbano 251 34:29.1

19. 496 BUTLER (31:16.9 156:24.2)

==========================================================

1 4 Mark Tucker 105 29:37.5

2 81 Brian Dunn 97 31:09.3

3 106 Gary Blackman 864 31:26.7

4 138 Steve Vernon 106 31:52.7

5 167 Brad Bennett 93 32:18.2

6 (189) Bill Peterman 102 32:53.6

7 (196) Lennon Wicks 107 33:06.1

20. 499 OHIO STATE (31:23.2 156:55.9)

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1 48 Derrick Butler 520 30:47.5

2 95 Rob Myers 525 31:18.9

3 100 Aaron Fisher 521 31:21.2

4 126 Dan Glaz 523 31:42.5

5 130 Sjaan Gerth 522 31:46.0

6 (139) Jon White 527 31:53.0

7 (145) Matt Penza 526 31:57.5

21. 526 SOUTHERN METHODIST (31:30.6 157:32.9)

==========================================================

1 15 Mindaugas Pukstas 602 30:15.5

2 50 Dalibor Balgac 588 30:48.8

3 129 Soeren Linder 599 31:45.8

4 147 Graham Davidson 589 31:58.6

5 185 Sebastian Hock 598 32:44.3

6 (195) Amos Skinner 604 33:05.8

7 (209) Steve Greenwell 596 33:59.9

22. 527 NOTRE DAME (31:28.8 157:23.7)

==========================================================

1 51 Tim Moore 511 30:50.0

2 61 Todd Mobley 510 30:58.9

3 118 David Alber 504 31:35.1

4 144 Eric Morrison 512 31:56.9

5 153 Ryan Johnson 506 32:02.8

6 (186) Brian Kerwin 508 32:44.5

7 (202) John Keane 507 33:21.0

23. 552 NORTH CAROLINA STATE (31:42.2 158:30.6)

==========================================================

1 44 Devin Swann 453 30:41.8

2 49 David Patterson 451 30:48.2

3 79 Kurtis Marlowe 450 31:08.3

4 187 Bryce Ruiz 452 32:47.7

5 193 Dean Bowker 444 33:04.7

6 (194) David Christian 446 33:05.1

7 (201) Ricky Brookshire 445 33:19.3

23. 552 TEXAS (31:32.3 157:41.3)

==========================================================

1 58 Ben Dawson 662 30:57.0

2 66 Kevin Barra 659 31:03.1

3 119 Jeff Wood 674 31:35.8

4 150 Zach Zeller 675 32:00.5

5 159 Mark Floreani 663 32:04.9

6 (208) Cameron Keel 664 33:52.0

25. 565 INDIANA (31:34.4 157:51.7)

==========================================================

1 59 John Jefferson 264 30:57.4

2 69 Sean Jefferson 265 31:04.0

3 133 Eric Redman 269 31:49.7

4 143 Tom Burns 259 31:55.2

5 161 Bart Phariss 267 32:05.5

6 (168) Stephen Haas 263 32:19.4

7 (178) Nathan Purcell 268 32:32.7

26. 569 TEXAS A&M (31:34.1 157:50.5)

==========================================================

1 71 Andrew Cook 688 31:04.2

2 73 Jon Lewis 694 31:05.8

3 113 Juan de Bastos 690 31:32.6

4 155 Brian McKiustry 695 32:03.8

5 157 Tommy Bonn 687 32:04.2

6 (163) Jayme D'Agnolo 689 32:10.5

7 (206) Joe Lanzillotti 693 33:38.7

27. 592 COLORADO STATE (31:39.2 158:15.7)

==========================================================

1 91 Raegan Robb 163 31:17.0

2 108 Austin Vigil 164 31:29.1

3 110 Josh Glaab 159 31:31.5

4 111 Dylan Olchin 162 31:31.5

5 172 Ammon Larsen 160 32:26.7

6 (179) Bill Michel 161 32:35.4

7 (191) Matt Cainciulli 158 32:56.8

28. 598 ALABAMA (31:44.3 158:41.3)

==========================================================

1 10 David Kimani 4 29:48.0

2 64 Peter Kiprono 5 30:59.8

3 141 Tyler Stanfield 9 31:54.6

4 180 Todd Fayant 3 32:37.4

5 203 Kevin McDonough 7 33:21.6

6 (210) Aaron Norton 8 34:14.9

29. 617 IOWA (31:41.6 158:27.9)

==========================================================

1 75 Matt Esche 289 31:06.9

2 109 Micah Vandenend 299 31:29.7

3 132 Dan Haut 290 31:47.0

4 136 Anthony Rakaric 295 31:51.8

5 165 Dan Trainor 297 32:12.6

6 (188) Brian Rae 294 32:49.2

7 (192) Joseph Welter 300 33:04.0

30. 646 MICHIGAN STATE (31:56.8 159:43.6)

==========================================================

1 41 Andrew Marsh 359 30:40.1

2 74 Chris Toloff 364 31:06.6

3 149 Jason Mueller 360 31:59.7

4 182 Cleve Thorson 363 32:40.0

5 200 Brian Wilson 366 33:17.2

6 (213) Steve Sherer 362 34:55.7

7 (214) James Johnson 357 35:46.6

31. 647 TENNESSEE (31:46.7 158:53.5)

==========================================================

1 78 Patrick Gildea 647 31:07.6

2 107 Eric Bell 642 31:28.1

3 142 Ed Davis 645 31:54.8

4 151 Scott Defilippis 646 32:01.4

5 169 Steve Klein 652 32:21.7

6 (181) Tim Kelly 650 32:38.2

7 (205) Rob Cloutier 644 33:31.4

WSC might have had a sniff at beating a peaking CSU

1. 35 Western State College (CO) (31:28.3 157:21.5)

==========================================================

1 3 William Banks 417 31:04.1

2 5 Rubin McRae 434 31:14.7

3 6 Josh Eberly 423 31:30.5

4 8 Chris Siemers 447 31:33.3

5 13 Kelly Christiansen 421 31:58.9

6 ( 14) Timothy Parr 442 31:59.7

7 ( 16) Phillip McPherson 432 32:00.9

just a note, for whoever posted westerns times from D2 nationals, remember guys that argue that they are slower, the course was COMPLETELY covered in snow...they shoveled a good amount out of the way, but you couldn't even see the flags on the sides the day before the race, and the day of there was just a 5 meter wide path to run through, and it was slushy mud the whole way...Just a note to why the times may be slower, I didn't even look to see if they were

heres stanfords 5k times...

Grant Robison 13:40.30

Louis Luchini 13:34.18

Don Sage 14:04.94

Ryan Hall: None listed

Peter Meindl: None listed

Adam Tenforde: 14:13.06

Pboi

Thats my bad they did run 10k at regionals. I got my races mixed up, stanford had 6-7 guys @24:00 or better at the pac 10s. peace

This argument is getting really old. It is almost pathetic that every month or so someone tries to compare Western to DI. The fact IS they aren't DI. I am not arguing for or against the argument here, but just rather stating some facts that might help end thisargument once and for all. Firstly, Western couldn't get into the Griak because they aren't a DI school, and not because they suck. Secondly it is completely impossible to compare the CU meet to anything. They lost bottom line. Even if they had their whole team in front of Severy they still lost. The argument about Torres putting a minute on them is also out, because he also put close to a minute on his brother if you pay close enough attention to the results. Thirdly it is also impossible for a team to hold a peak for six weeks, so the argument about them peaking at CU is also out. There are too many variables come into play when making this argument, and a lot of what if's are brought in. Most of the top schools that have their guys run these awsome times (Stanford, Arkansas, ect) are running at a lot better meets and at all if not three fourths of their meets whether they be xc or track are run at sea level. A lot of the Western runners run their pr's for xc @ elevation in the middle of their hardest part of training, just because of their location and budget ect. Lastly to say that Western wouldn't even make nationals at the DI level is completely close minded. It is hard to make Nationals, but in most regions you only have to be in the top 5 even if they were peaking for just regionals and only regionals they would still go to nationals just based on the calibur of their top runners. Both sides need to give it a rest, the underrated DII guys outthere who want to prove that they are "as good" as the insecure DI guys who are so stuck on themselves, they would never want to share the same sentence with a Josh Eberly or a Matt Levasseur. The only way to see what happens is to wait until they all meet up @ Mt. Sac or some other big invitational and see who runs well and who doesn't. For now all we as spectators and fellow athletes of the sport can do is train our a$%es off and worry about ourselves. Again I am not arguing in favor of Western or opposed to them I am just an outsider looking in just trying to help all of you think outside the box for a second to help eliminate speculation and put this argument to rest once for all................p.s. if you build it, they will come.

Just compare the top 20 nationals qualfiers from last year then and you'll see just how much stronger D1 and its top programs are compared to D2 and Western.

http://members.aol.com/rpodkam/d1mout02.txt

Event 7 Men 5000 Meter Run ** Auto: 13:46.00 **

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL SEED TIME DATE

==== ======================= == ======================= =========== =====

1 David Kimani JR Alabama 13:20.65 4-19

2 Alistair Cragg SO Arkansas 13:22.07 4-19

3 Jorge Torres JR Colorado 13:26.00 5-3

4 Dathan Ritzenhein FR Colorado 13:27.77 5-3

5 Jonathon Riley SR Stanford 13:29.15 5-3

6 Ryan Shay SR Notre Dame 13:35.08 4-19

7 Daniel Lincoln JR Arkansas 13:36.12 3-29

8 Grant Robison SO Stanford 13:40.30 4-19

9 Dalibor Balgac SO Southern Methodist 13:40.46 3-29

10 Louis Luchini SO Stanford 13:42.31 4-19

11 Luke Watson SR Notre Dame 13:44.92 3-29

12 Jason Woolhouse SO Oklahoma State 13:47.38 5-3

13 Steve Slattery SR Colorado 13:49.08 5-3

14 Balazs Csillag SR Northern Iowa 13:50.14 5-3

15 Seth Hejny SO Stanford 13:50.77 4-19

16 Fasil Bizuneh JR Arizona State 13:51.88 4-19

17 Mark Menefee SR Kansas 13:52.80 5-3

18 Peter Riley JR Iona 13:52.81 4-25

19 Ryan Woods SR NC State 13:53.58 5-3

20 Silverus Kimeli JR Arkansas 13:53.61 4-19

http://flashresults.com/flashwest/lists/d2men.htm

Event 27 Men's 5,000 Meter Run

Automatic Mark: 14:00.00

Provisional Mrk: 14:50.00

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 Michael Aish SR Western St. 13:22.64 13:22.64 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

2 Paul McRae JR Western St. 13:58.04 13:58.04 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

3 Scott Nagelkerke SO Western St. 14:02.87 14:02.87 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

4 Celedonio Rodriguez FR Adams State 14:04.48 14:04.48 05/10 Stanford

5 Josh Eberly JR Western St. 14:06.29 14:06.29 05/10 Stanford

6 Matt Levassiur SO Adams State 14:14.32 14:14.32 05/10 Stanford

7 Rubin McRae JR Western St. 14:17.58 14:17.58 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

8 Mark Stallings JR Millersville 14:19.03 14:19.03 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

9 Ryan Miller SR UC Davis 14:25.93 14:25.93 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

10 Arthemon Sindayigaya JR Abilene Chr. 14:26.15 14:26.15 04/25 Penn Relays

11 Steve Laurie JR UC Davis 14:26.42 14:26.42 03/29 Stanford

12 Steve Larson SO Hillsdale 14:27.59 14:27.59 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

13 Tyler Graff SO Chico State 14:32.31 14:32.31 04/20 UC Davis

14 Jacob Rotich SO Harding 14:32.30h 14:32.54 04/09 Searcy, AK

15 Aaron Rowe JR Edinboro 14:32.84 14:32.84 05/10 PSAC

16 Arturo Cabral SR Lewis Univ. 14:33.27 14:33.27 05/11 Butler

17 Zepherinus Joseph SR N. Florida 14:33.99 14:33.99 05/11 FSU Twilight

18 Enrique Guerrero JR Adams State 14:34.05 14:34.05 05/10 Stanford

19 Jason Walker SR Humboldt St. 14:35.10h 14:35.34 04/05 SAlem, OR

20 Sean Rivers SO Anchorage 14:35.40h 14:35.64 04/06 Williamette Invit

11 D1 guys made the auto time for their national meet. Only 2 D2 guys made their auto time.

How many guys did Western have under 14? Two. Colorado had 4, so did Arkansas, and so did Stanford.

If Western were in D1 then according to the time cut-off in place for nationals last year they would have had only one runner make the nationals in the 5K, Aish. All the rest of the Western runners would have been shut out.

seriously...

people dont even talk about Hejny (13:50) and yet someone like Eberly (14:06 - and i dont mean to diss him, he is quite ballsy) is something of a god. when, shit how many faceless stanford guys run near that fast.

who is Neil Davis? Western's #1

i cant believe this is being entertained.

I'm more of a CU fan, but to suggest Western State isn't a legitimate top-five XC team at NCAA D-1 nationals is ludicrous. They may not get anyone in the top 15-20 some years, but Western does have the depth to put five, hell, seven guys in the top 50. And folks here are talking about Western with five guys at or under 26-minutes for an 8K at *altitude* so one can shave almost a minute off of that time for a comparable course at sea-level. Five guys near or under 25-minutes on a legit XC course will get you in the top 10 at nationals every time. Buffalo Ranch might not be as challenging as Van Courtland Park, but it's not a cakewalk either, especially at 5,400'.

Now don't take this the wrong way and get your panties in a wad but I do assume that everyone will agree that indoor tracks are the same time wise. If you don't than I guess you disagree completely with the whole qualifying process. So there is no doubt in my mind that the guys in the D1 mile would have been a lot faster had the race not been sit and kick but if you compare the national championships apparently western would have the top 2 milers in the nation. Now I know this isn't true and I also know that the mile isn't a great representative of cross country ability. I would say though that you do have to consider Naglekerkes a 5k runner and not a miler. There is no doubt in my mind that Western could compete with and qualify in division one. I also believe that in some years they could be a top 5 team. just an outsider looking in

If you were to take the western 5k runners at indoor nationals and place them in the division one race than western would have gone 12,13,14,16,17,18 granted they are still different races with different strategy's but that is some interesting information

Yeah, CU beat Western in October by 1 point. How many points would CU have beaten the bottom 20 teams at D1 Nats at the Shootout??

Ok KL

First of all, can we please stop comparing cross country times. There are too many variables that come into play.

Second of all, someone above posted Westerns top five 5k runners. 5th man at 14:13 with three guys under 14:00. Since there are so many teams that are better than Western, name me some that are at least this good. Here, I'll even help you out: Stanford, Arkansas. You find just five more and I will agree with you. After all, as you said, they wouldn't even be close to qualifing for the D1 meet. So finding five teams with better marks 1-5 shouldn't be very hard.

And for the guy who posted the 5k qualifing marks from last year. That list showed 11 teams qualifing at least one guy for the national meet. Westerns top guy would have qualified 3rd. So does that mean that Western is at least in the top 11 teams in the country. No one is saying that D2 is better or deeper than D1. Just simply that Western is good enough to compete with the best in the country.

Honestly I don't think Western State would have made D1 nats. I don't think they would have been close....And yes as I said before most D1 schools easily have 5 guys under 26 (as the post before me said.....most D1 schools have 6-7 guys under 26....and the very top schools who go to nationals are deeper than that).....Western State is good....but they are no where as good as most people believe that are posting on this thread. D1 is a different world than D2.....and there is no proof other than a junk meet that supports your point at all. Maybe if you started dropping Kenyan names that western state has I would be more inclined to agree with you, but you don't even have that. Western State would be a good team in D1, a dyanasty in D2.[/quote]

INTHEKNOW wrote:

And for the guy who posted the 5k qualifing marks from last year. That list showed 11 teams qualifing at least one guy for the national meet. Westerns top guy would have qualified 3rd. So does that mean that Western is at least in the top 11 teams in the country.

No, it does not mean that, though certainly Western has the tools to be a top-20 D1 cross team, even if they don't have the accreditation, etc. It means that Westnern would have had one individual in the 5K at nationals while Colorado had two, Arkansas had three, and Stanford had four, and two guys under 14:00 for the season while Stanford, Colorado, and Arkansas each had four.