1) He competed in most dirty era of endurance sports. There was no epo test until 2001. You had the most powerful endurance drug ever created undetectable for around a decade.
2) Times were run so consistently (weekly, biweekly, seasons back to back) that are very rarely touched ~20 years later.
You can go on and on - IE training partners/rabbits busted, braces as an adult, etc.
ISBN wrote:
5) Never ran competitively over 800m and had a very slow pb, 1:47, despite clearly being able to run much faster. Perhaps, like Lagat, he wasn't capable of running the 1:43 that he should have been able to, and didn't want the world to see that discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800 and what he actually could have. OTT endurance with inferior 400/800 speed.
He was as guilty as hell!
I don't get this point - sorry I'm not a track aficionado. Can you restate more clearly why his lack of competing at 800m indicates doping?
You've contradicted yourself in this point as well. You say he can clearly run much faster than his 'slow pb', but then you speculate he didn't want the world to see that 'discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800' and what he could have?
Also, your points are at odds. On one hand you're indicating deceptive behavior (point 5), yet points 4) and 7) are consistent with an athlete unconcerned about covering anything up at all.
help me out here wrote:
ISBN wrote:5) Never ran competitively over 800m and had a very slow pb, 1:47, despite clearly being able to run much faster. Perhaps, like Lagat, he wasn't capable of running the 1:43 that he should have been able to, and didn't want the world to see that discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800 and what he actually could have. OTT endurance with inferior 400/800 speed.
He was as guilty as hell!
I don't get this point - sorry I'm not a track aficionado. Can you restate more clearly why his lack of competing at 800m indicates doping?
You've contradicted yourself in this point as well. You say he can clearly run much faster than his 'slow pb', but then you speculate he didn't want the world to see that 'discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800' and what he could have?
Also, your points are at odds. On one hand you're indicating deceptive behavior (point 5), yet points 4) and 7) are consistent with an athlete unconcerned about covering anything up at all.
Yeah this point makes zero sense. He ran fast at many distances, 2k/3k/5k but just never did the 800m for some reason. Reportedly he ran 1:42 in a training time trial and that sounds reasonable to me. Even if he was doping, I doubt his lack of 800m racing was an attempt to hide his doping
In the dirtiest era and one of the dirtiest events, El G dominated like no other athlete. I think that at one point he had won 72 out of his last 74 races.
3:26.00
Skeptik wrote:
help me out here wrote:I don't get this point - sorry I'm not a track aficionado. Can you restate more clearly why his lack of competing at 800m indicates doping?
You've contradicted yourself in this point as well. You say he can clearly run much faster than his 'slow pb', but then you speculate he didn't want the world to see that 'discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800' and what he could have?
Also, your points are at odds. On one hand you're indicating deceptive behavior (point 5), yet points 4) and 7) are consistent with an athlete unconcerned about covering anything up at all.
Yeah this point makes zero sense. He ran fast at many distances, 2k/3k/5k but just never did the 800m for some reason. Reportedly he ran 1:42 in a training time trial and that sounds reasonable to me. Even if he was doping, I doubt his lack of 800m racing was an attempt to hide his doping
I think the implication is that up to the EPO era of the 90's, most elite milers were pretty decent and capable of reaching championship finals at 800 too.
There was a distinct trend in the 90's where the best milers reverted to 1500/5000m runners. Whereas up to the end of the 80's only 1 man had broken 13 mins for the 5k, it was soon followed by a decade where 1500 specialists were also running crazy times at 3 & 5k. This probably due to impact of EPO on improving endurance and the longer distances.
800 not as impacted as much by EPO, and became increasingly a specialised event during 90's. EL G probably felt he couldn't compete down the distances, but his massive EPO regime enabled him to run amazing at 3 & 5k. Why bother running 2 laps when you're going to get whooped through lack of basic speed.
Pretty certain that whole 'did 1:42.7 tt in training' was a complete ruse.
In previous years you'd expect a 3:28 1500 guy to have 1:43.0 800 ability at least. Would need that speed, but probably wouldn't have been able to break 13:10 for 5k.
The 3:28 prototypes in the 90's were endurance based thanks to EPO and probably would have struggled to break 1:45.0. On the other hand, they could run sub 13:00 for 5k.
Had EL G been capable of sub 1:43, then surely he would have done so and cemented himself as greatest half miler/miler of all time. The fact he didn't even attempt it suggests he couldn't manage that fast.
ISBN wrote:
Of all the athletes who never tested positive, EL G is, for me, the most obviously doped athlete in history.
1) he ran at the height of the EPO era when there was no testing at all until 2000, and after that we know the testing was poor and unreliable until after he retired.
2) He was Moroccan and the majority of his peers and training partners were found to have doped. The idea that all Moroccans dope apart from the one who was head and shoulders above all others, is inconceivable.
3) The times he ran ( and fellow dopers like Lagat and Ngeny) were far beyond the historical rate of progression in their events. The times they ran aren't really being approached even today, apart from an athlete who competes for a nation that has had no random testing until this year, whose federation has been proven to be corrupt and whose agent/ coach has recently been arrested for possession and distribution of PEDs.
4) EL G ran fast times, close to WR times, not once or twice during a 2 or 3 year peak period, but on a regular, fort nightly basis, throughout a season, for many seasons. His rate of recovery has never been seen before or since. It was super human.
5) Never ran competitively over 800m and had a very slow pb, 1:47, despite clearly being able to run much faster. Perhaps, like Lagat, he wasn't capable of running the 1:43 that he should have been able to, and didn't want the world to see that discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800 and what he actually could have. OTT endurance with inferior 400/800 speed.
6) braces worn late in career.
7) showing total lack of fatigue at end of WR runs.
He was as guilty as hell!
I agree with all your points here. Of course it is circumstantial but in general I do believe that the "Armstrong rule" - that being it's not viable that someone who competes against (past and present) and is far superior to those in his/her sport that get caught for doping can plausibly be clean - definitely exists (and yes this also counts for athletes such as Usain Bolt, Dibaba etc)
I don't see how El G was able to dominate in such an era when the predominant drug of that era was completely undetectable at the time and against his closest competitors who also got caught (yes ladies and gentlemen our American hero Bernard Lagat most definitely was caught no matter how he or James Templeton tried to spin it) and was squeaky clean. I find that highly unlikely.
I think the only point I would omit is the 800m one - he might have had a very loosely reported PR of 1.47 but I know for a fact he ran 800m in workouts much quicker than 1.47 and in fact he actually closed out the final 800m of Athens in under 1min47 if you wanted to use that as a reference
RevolutionaryThinker wrote:
Some say he did, some say he didn't, but with Kiprop's potential to take down his 18-year-old record, I think it's time we ask this question again:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1915626&page=1What do his records mean for distance running? What, if he gets it, will Kiprop's?
better question is - convince me he wasn't doping because it's much, much easier to make the case that he was (numerous common trains of thought in this thread already)
fallaciousness wrote:
3:26.00
These arguments mystify me. Please inform me what the non-doping limit is so we can just ban anyone who runs too fast.
unfortunately this and the 12:37 5k we have are probably the dirtiest on the books.
I think the most telling sign is that no one can really train and recovery properly to run those kind of times.
Take a Jack Daniels interval workout: say 10 x 1,000M at 5K pace. No one can run them at 2:31!!!! You break down after like 4, not Rupp, not Farah, not Meb, not Virren no one should be able to train like that!
Sandman wrote:
fallaciousness wrote:3:26.00
These arguments mystify me. Please inform me what the non-doping limit is so we can just ban anyone who runs too fast.
Normally, I agree with you. It's a ridiculous argument. But El G is one of those few people who does seem, quite simply, too good to be true.
If El G was clean, he is BY FAR the greatest mid distance runner in human history. Like, not even close. The times he ran were so ridiculously fast and as was stated before, he ran them many times. I mean, he ran 3:26 three or four times and 3:27 a whole bunch more and then he ran some really fast miles as well. Nowadays, 3:28 is a big deal. That was like an off day for El G.
If El G was clean, then that means people like Jim Ryun, Coe, Snell, and basically everyone other than the people from his era who were close to him (Lagat, Ngeny, and Morceli) were complete ass compared to him.
And maybe he was just that good and he pushed those other guys to new heights as well. I would love for that to be the case. He was and is a sporting hero of mine. But the fact is, it was the height of the EPO era and, as others have said, it's just like Lance's situation. How could it be that someone who DOMINATED everyone else in the most doped era of the sport could be clean? :(
and people say that drugs don't work. "nothing more than a placebo"
1. Some athletes have doped.
2. Some athletes did not dope.
3. In many cases we will never know who did and who did not dope.
4. Many people insist that some athletes *must* have doped because how fast they ran.
5. Suggest a committee establish a speed limit for each event, beyond which any offender receives an automatic ban for presumed doping.
6. We then no longer have to bother with the frustrating realities of life, such as paying for labs, establishing trust in technicians and athletes, dealing with the cognitive dissonance of doubt.
harsh but true guy wrote:
ISBN wrote:Of all the athletes who never tested positive, EL G is, for me, the most obviously doped athlete in history.
1) he ran at the height of the EPO era when there was no testing at all until 2000, and after that we know the testing was poor and unreliable until after he retired.
2) He was Moroccan and the majority of his peers and training partners were found to have doped. The idea that all Moroccans dope apart from the one who was head and shoulders above all others, is inconceivable.
3) The times he ran ( and fellow dopers like Lagat and Ngeny) were far beyond the historical rate of progression in their events. The times they ran aren't really being approached even today, apart from an athlete who competes for a nation that has had no random testing until this year, whose federation has been proven to be corrupt and whose agent/ coach has recently been arrested for possession and distribution of PEDs.
4) EL G ran fast times, close to WR times, not once or twice during a 2 or 3 year peak period, but on a regular, fort nightly basis, throughout a season, for many seasons. His rate of recovery has never been seen before or since. It was super human.
5) Never ran competitively over 800m and had a very slow pb, 1:47, despite clearly being able to run much faster. Perhaps, like Lagat, he wasn't capable of running the 1:43 that he should have been able to, and didn't want the world to see that discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800 and what he actually could have. OTT endurance with inferior 400/800 speed.
6) braces worn late in career.
7) showing total lack of fatigue at end of WR runs.
He was as guilty as hell!
I agree with all your points here. Of course it is circumstantial but in general I do believe that the "Armstrong rule" - that being it's not viable that someone who competes against (past and present) and is far superior to those in his/her sport that get caught for doping can plausibly be clean - definitely exists (and yes this also counts for athletes such as Usain Bolt, Dibaba etc)
I don't see how El G was able to dominate in such an era when the predominant drug of that era was completely undetectable at the time and against his closest competitors who also got caught (yes ladies and gentlemen our American hero Bernard Lagat most definitely was caught no matter how he or James Templeton tried to spin it) and was squeaky clean. I find that highly unlikely.
I think the only point I would omit is the 800m one - he might have had a very loosely reported PR of 1.47 but I know for a fact he ran 800m in workouts much quicker than 1.47 and in fact he actually closed out the final 800m of Athens in under 1min47 if you wanted to use that as a reference
Thanks for your response.
I know his official 800 pb of 1:47 is a nonsense, and that he closed the Athens final in 1:46.9. I'm also sure he was capable of much faster. The question is How much faster?
I don't buy the 1:42.7 tt. If he could do that, then why not run and set a decent pb on the circuit. He could easily find a circuit race with no Kipketer and get paced to a 1:42.5 - 1:43.0 clocking if the tt was true.
I think it's more likely he could probably only have managed a 48 high 400, 1:44 mid 800 in paced conditions, and this would just look at odds with his best times at longer distances.
Interesting to conjecture, of course we'll never know for certain.
Ultraconsistent wrote:
eimpped wrote:Or is inconsistency more indicative of doping and trying to duck testers? Sometimes on (had a few weeks of good therapy or a transfusion), sometimes off (testers been hounding my area).
The same for the logic that he ran faster than someone else who doped and was caught. I can take all the drugs I want, but would never come close to his times, and probably not even a womens WR at this point (I'm a male).
In fact both consistency and inconsistency are more indicative of doping. Likewise, both being faster and slower are more indicative of doping. Because this is the place where your dreams become reality, you can interpret any data or non-data any way you want, to suit whatever conclusion you have already made.
Your theory is exactly correct.
In conclusion:
You are incorrect.
http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2007+World+Athletics+Gala+IqtPEwcqMb-x.jpghttp://www.athletics-africa.com/s/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/genzebe_dibaba11-giancarlo-colombo-900x675.jpghttp://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20081124/000802c98ccc0a94801207.jpghttp://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2007+World+Athletics+Gala+bC9DiV5sQ6-l.jpghttp://www.runblogrun.com/images/Radcliffe-Coe2-IAAF07.jpgThere is nothing to see here.
anyone who believes el guerrouj was clean needs their brain checked
For the 800m, I don't think his speed was lacking. Have you seen that he could run 10x400m in 53-54 in workouts on short rest? But I think that he was entirely focused on the 1500m and mile, that he didn't want his aura of invincibility to be damaged by losing to Kipketer, and that he would not be paid the same appearance fee for running the 800m. Still, it is crazy that the two top 3:26 guys, El G and Lagat, never broke even 1:46 in an 800m race.
He went under 3:30 31 times, 20+ times more than the next guy. That stat alone means he was either the greatest miler to ever walk the earth by a large margin or doped to the gills.
Tnfmedia wrote:
He went under 3:30 31 times, 20+ times more than the next guy. That stat alone means he was either the greatest miler to ever walk the earth by a large margin or doped to the gills.
By the way a guy named Lance was exactly like that to the cycling world, super consistent and heads and shoulders above the rest. So....
A safe exit wrote:
El G's retirement at 30, after winning double gold, after moving up to 5000m and showing such greatness there, is pretty telling. They knew the WADA testing era was upon them. Morceli retired at 30 but he had had been eclipsed by others...not the case for El G.
What happened with lagat, he went through the same new testing era. Do you think he just had more natural talent?
