There are a lot of women that could stand to lose their livelihoods if women's sports become inundated with intersex and transgender people. This conversation is not dated, it is only just beginning. Anyone demanding that there be no conversation is just pushing their own agenda. Caster may be an extreme outlier, but she clearly falls into the "open" category that Rojo described. Just ask Caster'so wife if she a man.
Rojo, one point of the argument always comes down to sex (a person’s biological status) vs gender ( the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person’s biological sex). T&F has classifications based on sex. This journalist thinks they are classified based on gender.
Thank you for standing up with and for the real XX women of the world.However, there are two points that I feel you should be aware of and consider
Requiring someone like Caster Semenya, who is XY, to reduce her testosterone so she can compete in the protected women's category isn't an inhumane burden. She can politely decline to do so and compete on an amateur level like most athletes across the globe or she could try to compete professionally in the men's category (which maybe should be redefined as the "open" category).
First, you keep referring to the XY male Semenya as she and her, instead of he and him. I understand you've likely been pressured by the lobby of men who want to compete in women's events, but strongly request that you stand firm. not give in to them, and do keep firming standing with true XX women.
Secondly, slightly reducing his testosterone, to levels still far higher than that of an XX woman, is NOT a solution. Either make the requirement to be as low as the typical level for real XX women, in which case he would no longer be competitive, or the best solution, stand up for all XX women, by not allowing any XY man to compete in the women's events, even if they slightly reduce their testosterone.
To do otherwise is to take a desecrating position toward women, and the women's athletic events.
Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:
"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."
But isn't the journalist arguing that "physical gender" should be the deciding factor versus genetic or hormonal gender? So if there are three (or more factors) I guess one can create some kind of decision matrix. So that the agreed upon "boxes" can be checked.
The other argument is fairness. For the journalist is it fair to have a man race a woman? Just ask. If so then there will be the single "open" category and women's sports will end.
1 2 3 green wrote:
Rojo, one point of the argument always comes down to sex (a person’s biological status) vs gender ( the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person’s biological sex). T&F has classifications based on sex. This journalist thinks they are classified based on gender.
1) I think the whole argument of allowing people to choose their own gender makes my argument of requiring treatment all the more commonsensical otherwise you are going to have Caitlyn Jenner in the women's category without treatment.
2) At one point i said to her, I think you and I are going to have to disagree. I'm coming at that solely from the perspective of a fan/expert of track and field. It's clear ot me you are only coming at it as someone interested in transgedner rights, and then I was blown away to learn she was the captain of her college cross country team.
3) I think most athletes dont' think Semenya should compete in the women's category but some like Brenda Martinez do. I respect Brenda and acknowledge we have a difference of opinion What I don't get is how my views are being viewed as bigoted and ill-intentioned.
PS. I don't think Caster is a man. Most definitely not. Those posts anger me. If you are born without a penis, to be called a man would be tough. That being said, I'm not going to delete those comments as people are entitled to that opinion. I have great personal sympathy for her and find it to be fascinating how she's almost flaunting her 'masculine' features after races now.
oldermilen wrote:
Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:
"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."
That was a pretty bad blunder. Should be under the category of "born with a silver foot in your mouth."
oldermilen wrote:
Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:
"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."
lol. That sentence jumped out at me too. Definitely not a very carefully worded email to someone you know is looking for any way to twist what you say to fit their story.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Do you really believe that your message board fosters a reasonable, responsible conversation about gender and sports?
Yes I do.
1 2 3 green wrote:
oldermilen wrote:Be ready for a picture of you with the following quote in large, bold print:
"I'm proud to be considered a bigot."
lol. That sentence jumped out at me too. Definitely not a very carefully worded email to someone you know is looking for any way to twist what you say to fit their story.
thats why politicians always talk in careful meaningless words. because you have opposition, which you can never bring to your side. They will just try to f*uck you. Its the same situation with this journalist
Regarding this issue wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:Do you really believe that your message board fosters a reasonable, responsible conversation about gender and sports?
Yes I do.
I don't. I mean, there are reasonable and responsible posts on both sides on there, but there is also a lot of bigoted ugly stuff, like most of the Letsrun message boards.
Not sure if they are going to slam the editorial stance on Letsrun or the forum they provide for others?
yurop wrote:
1 2 3 green wrote:lol. That sentence jumped out at me too. Definitely not a very carefully worded email to someone you know is looking for any way to twist what you say to fit their story.
thats why politicians always talk in careful meaningless words. because you have opposition, which you can never bring to your side. They will just try to f*uck you. Its the same situation with this journalist
It is especially egregious considering the battering that rojo constantly takes for his terrible spelling, grammar, logic, political views and arithmetic. rojo needs to slow down his typing to match his brain speed, and then have someone who speaks English check his work.
rojo wrote:
2) I was blown away to learn she was the captain of her college cross country team.
Interesting. Is s/he an XY male?
I don't think Caster is a man. Most definitely not. Those posts anger me. If you are born without a penis, to be called a man would be tough. That being said, I'm not going to delete those comments as people are entitled to that opinion. I have great personal sympathy for her and find it to be fascinating how she's almost flaunting her 'masculine' features after races now.
Rojo, don't you understand how offensive you are being to women by referring to him as a woman? You know he's an XY male. Because he's a male he should be referred to as a male, because 1) that's what he is biologically, and 2) he is not a female. By calling him her and see, you are being offensive to all women, specifically to women who compete in athletics, and are threatening the existence of women's athletics.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
I don't. I mean, there are reasonable and responsible posts on both sides on there, but there is also a lot of bigoted ugly stuff, like most of the Letsrun message boards.
Not really, as long as you ignore the occasional anonymous post. SJWs love focusing on the one thing that offends them. It's like going to a park and having a picnic next to the only pile of dogshit so you can complain about the dogshit. That's SJWs' approach to life.
Not sure if they are going to slam the editorial stance on Letsrun or the forum they provide for others?
They are clearly slamming LetsRun itself, not the boards.
Mike Rossi would have gotten to the finish quicker, but I agree with everything you wrote. Nice job!
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Regarding this issue wrote:Yes I do.
I don't. I mean, there are reasonable and responsible posts on both sides on there, but there is also a lot of bigoted ugly stuff, like most of the Letsrun message boards.
Not sure if they are going to slam the editorial stance on Letsrun or the forum they provide for others?
I'm referring to those of us who are standing up for and with women.
Although you are right that the XY men's lobby is being quite bigoted, there are plenty of people here who are standing up for the women. In this sense, LR is allowing a reasoned discussion about the atrocity of XY men trying to compete in women's events.
Take gender completely out of the sport
IAAF should redefine their competition group split as Open High Testosterone and Restricted Low Testosterone with each having an upper limit that mirrors their current testosterone thresholds.
Game set and match.
What's next Mrs. Landingham?
You saw the angle of the piece in the NYT Magazine written recently by Ruth Padawer. It ignored the obvious cause and effect reality of Semenya's post medicated performances, focusing instead on perceived mistreatment of intersex/ and or Trans athletes, going back decades and painting a picture of injustice. The title of Padawer's piece: "The Humilating Practice of Sex-Testing Female Athletes" was itself an attempt to recast a routine gynecological procedure as something invasive and sinister.
The effect of Padawer's dishonest article on an unknowledgeable NYT readership was acute. As would be expected of people with no connection to Track, most of the NYT readers condemned the IAAF and championed Chand and Semenya. Had Padawer told the full story: that of Ajee, Eunice, Melissa and others who have trained hard for years, and who are now being denied justice, profit, acclaim, and status for their efforts, then possibly even some of the trans-rainbow community might have spoken up for them.
Padawer's piece was a lie told in pursuit of an ideological agenda. It was screamingly false because it cared more about expanding gay/trans rights than about justice for everyone, not to mention fair sport. Authors like Padawer are going to peddle their emotional distortions. As for what "your missing," it seems to me that you should question and pursue McClaren and the other CAS judges with the same vigor that you do Salazar and Rupp. Because a ruling so ruinous and unjust can't possibly stem from stupidity. It is probably motivated by the same ideological and ethical blindness as that of Padawer's.
old guy 70 wrote:
As someone stated in a previous post.
Why should 99.99% of the world's female population be put at a disadvantage in order to be fair to the remaining .01%? (I'm sure the percentages are not exact, but can't be far off)
This is a classic example of "political correctness" run amok.
0.01%? That's 1 out of every 10,000,000 million people.
There are roughly 1,000 medals awarded at the Olympics. So, 0.00001% of the world's population. So, there are 1,000 times more athletes putting females at risk of losing than there are Olympic medalists. That is truly amazing.
This is tiring.
Rojo is not planning on taking any action against any transgender person. He will not be banning anyone from competing in any competition. He is only expressing an opinion.
Liberals do not believe in freedom of speech. Everyone who does not agree with their agenda is evil and needs to be silenced, imprisoned if necessary.
The hatred and anti-speech is only coming from one side of this issue. Before persons with an XY chromosome were allowed to compete in women's events there was no hatred towards those who thought they should.
Liberals do not give a damn about transgenders. Their agenda is to spread hatred and to vilify those who are not one of them. Their agenda is to rule over others.